Dog whisperer???

[Yellow Dog]

This is only an opinoin, not being rude!

My Uncle's kinda strange, he thinks that the whole Cesar Millan thingy works, but still his poodle IS SOOOOOOOO Annoying. She barks at my every move like i didn't have permition to walk. He claims the dog whisperer works, but it has gotten worse!! he brings her everywhere, to my house as well. PLEASE HELP!!!! I AM GOING CRAZY FROM HER LITTLE PUPPY BARK AND GROWLS, I CAN'T TAKE MUCH MORE!!!!!!AAAGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

sry. getting a little carried away.....

please help me....

[bella24]

Haha! Well maybe the dog whispering is helping him... who knows!!
depending on the age of the dog, you may want to suggest to your uncle that she is taken to a trainer! trainers can help him to be able to control her more successfully! If that doesnt work, just train it yourself! haha!

I know how annoying the poodle bark can be though! I have a poodle mix, and she barks like crazy at NOTHING!! Good luck ;)

[Yellow Dog]

well, she is 1 year. The dog whisperer show is kinda creepy. He gave me the compleate 1st season for my crisrmas present....

He is weird...he never shuts up about his dog...i love dogs and all but enough is enough if you know what i mean!

[bella24]

Haha yeah! Well all people are different in the ways they raise/train their dog's and what they believe they should do! I have never watched the dog whisperer... It sounds interesting though... I know that the Horse Whisperer was a great movie, however!!
I knew a guy who was bit by a fox with rabies, and ever since has believed he could talk to horses and other animals!! Who knows! I wish I could, hehehe ;)

[Becky]

IMVHO,

"The Dog Whisperer" should be taken for what it is ment to be... A TV SHOW FOR ENTERTAINMENT. MO, Mr. Milan doesn't really do much else than entertain.

I used to be a Milan fan, but I'm certainly not anymore. There are many more trainers and behaviorists out there that do much better at working with dogs than Milan, and they do it without force. IMO, we, as humans, need to learn to understand dogs, not force them to do our every wim. I'm all for +R when it can be used, Nothing in Life is Free, and other non-coersional methods of being a *benevolent leader.*

Anyway in short story about my dog an Milan.

I did what Milan did (not extreme stuff though) and my dog acted pretty poorly... I switched methods, forgot about all that "alpha" stuff and started working WITH my dog. On Milan's methods, I was more status seeking than my dog.

I then forgot about forcing my "dominance" on my dog because she misbehaved or did this or that...I started training. I read some of Patricia McConnell's work... my dog and I have a better relationship because of it... and she's much more well behaved...

I think, if you really want to teach your dog, work with your dog, train your dog, and most importantly understand her you should start by reading a book along the line of Culture Clash or Dogs Behaving Badly.

JMVHO though.

[LoveThatPom]

Ay yi yi. My mom loves that Dog Whisperer junk too. Maybe your uncle isn't approaching Cesar's technique the proper way... Tell him he needs to do more than just talk to that dog!

[bella24]

IMVHO,

"The Dog Whisperer" should be taken for what it is ment to be... A TV SHOW FOR ENTERTAINMENT. MO, Mr. Milan doesn't really do much else than entertain.

I used to be a Milan fan, but I'm certainly not anymore. There are many more trainers and behaviorists out there that do much better at working with dogs than Milan, and they do it without force. IMO, we, as humans, need to learn to understand dogs, not force them to do our every wim. I'm all for +R when it can be used, Nothing in Life is Free, and other non-coersional methods of being a *benevolent leader.*

Anyway in short story about my dog an Milan.

I did what Milan did (not extreme stuff though) and my dog acted pretty poorly... I switched methods, forgot about all that "alpha" stuff and started working WITH my dog. On Milan's methods, I was more status seeking than my dog.

I then forgot about forcing my "dominance" on my dog because she misbehaved or did this or that...I started training. I read some of Patricia McConnell's work... my dog and I have a better relationship because of it... and she's much more well behaved...

I think, if you really want to teach your dog, work with your dog, train your dog, and most importantly understand her you should start by reading a book along the line of Culture Clash or Dogs Behaving Badly.

JMVHO though.

Just wondering!! What does IMVHO, JMVHO, and IMO mean?? I have been trying to figure it out, haha!!

[LoveThatPom]

IMVHO = in my very humble opinion
JMVHO = just my very humble opinion
IMO = in my opinion

[bella24]

Nice, thank you!! I have never hear those before...!

[pittiegirl]

Great post Becky.

Cesar's methods are 20+ years out-of-date and are NOT for the average dog owner. No one can learn about dog training from a television show. It's entertainment, and it even includes a warning about trying those methods at home. And, keep in mind that it's edited to look like miracle work - you're just seeing 20 minute sections on each dog and those sections are just spliced together to make it look like a easy fix.

I'm not surprised your uncle's poodle is annoying. Using those methods can lock owner and dog in an eternal power struggle where the dog fights every move and the owner feel like he has to force submission at all times. That does not a good relationship make. :(

[Cheetah]

I thought it was "In My Very Honest Opinion" lmfao..

[Georgia]

Out of curiosity, is there anything dog owners (new or old) can gleened from his shows?? Please understand, I am not suggesting his methods are appropriate. I am just trying to play devil's advocate because I think this is a question lots of new members may have.

Is there anything to be learned from his "recommendations"?

[pittiegirl]

1) Dogs are dogs. They aren't furry four-footed humans and they aren't babies. They're dogs and should be treated as such.

2) The human needs training as much or more than the dog does.

[Becky]

1) Dogs are dogs. They aren't furry four-footed humans and they aren't babies. They're dogs and should be treated as such.

2) The human needs training as much or more than the dog does.

That's all I can think of as well.

[skunkstripe]

"No one can learn about dog training from a television show."

I do not agree with that statement. I think if you can learn from a book or from a DVD then you can learn from a TV show. Maybe not from the one that is the subject of this thread (never saw it so I can't comment), but it can certainly be a good start.

[pittiegirl]

Television shows are edited first for higher ratings, second to fit in a certain time slot. Learning from a book or DVD is a whole different concept. TV *may* hit on some of the very basic things, but for the majority of the dog owning public (the ones who don't hang out on dog boards :) ) tv shows just enough to get them into trouble when they try to imitate.

[retriever crazy]

to me, there is just to many training methods.. i have been to three different dog obedient classes and all were different. one was a clicker training, the second was a 'being rough and dominent' with your dog, and the one i am doing now is ' positive and fun' kind... and now cecear has his own training too.. i dont know which one works the best and i get confused alot but in 4H i swiched counties and the second and third one i was taught to train my dogs on.. i have done some clicker training but lilly isnt interested in treats but it works good with flip.. i just think that there is to many training methods in the 'world of dog training' and half of all ppl dont know what they are doing... i mean dont get wrong or anything but i think dog training is alot of fun and would love to make a carere out of it but i want to learn the right way but im just really confused

[bella24]

I thought it was "In My Very Honest Opinion" lmfao..
Haha! Well... either way I guess! You may have to start saying IMVHonestO
Or IMVHumbleO so we don't get confused!!! :p ;)

[Becky]

have done some clicker training but lilly isnt interested in treats but it works good with flip

I just want to mention that clicker training rewards do NOT have to be food. My dog could care less about most foods outside the house so I had to be a little more innovative :wtf: ... which bummed me out for a short while because it is the easiest; however, here are some things that you can also use:

a quick game of tug
a belly rub
a quick game of fetch
a quick game of chase
an ear scritch

You pretty much can use anything that you want if it motivates your dog. If you're teaching stay and your dog is really interested in going outside, you can use going out as a reward... I.E. "Fido, stay." Fido stays, you click, then let him out the door. Right then and there, he doesn't want a biscuit, he wants OUT! :D

Maddi's a tug hound and a chaser when outdoors (indoors I can use treats), so that's what I usually use. You can also switch the reward up to keep in interesting.

IMO, clicker training is one of the fastest methods I've used to teach anything.


I disagree that you can learn much about training a dog from a 1 hour television show which usually consists of 3-4 segments. Sure, it can give you ideas. But books usually break everything down, which would take hours on the TV show... so they are just going to make Cesar look cool and move on. However, if I want training ideas from a TV show, I'll watch "Barking Mad" on Animal Planet :)

[opokki]

1) Dogs are dogs. They aren't furry four-footed humans and they aren't babies. They're dogs and should be treated as such.

2) The human needs training as much or more than the dog does.


3) Dogs need exercise. ;)

[LoveThatPom]

On Retriever's idea about the "right way" to train dogs, this is the best I can think of. Being a teacher, there is no one way to teach kids. Some kids do better with visual representations, some oral, some hands-on, etc. Basically, what works for one child won't work for every child. You need to differentiate your teaching to the child. I think this same idea applies to dogs. Different methods work well for different dogs, and a truly good trainer would be able to determine which technique will work best for a particular dog. Just an idea... Let me know what you guys think!

i just think that there is to many training methods in the 'world of dog training' and half of all ppl dont know what they are doing... i mean dont get wrong or anything but i think dog training is alot of fun and would love to make a carere out of it but i want to learn the right way but im just really confused

[pittiegirl]

3) Dogs need exercise. ;)

:thumb: A tired dog is a good dog.

[s4m222]

in the end the show is a show, they have to make it look easy etc... and of course no one can learn completely about dog "training" well its actually dog psychology from a 30 min segment on national geographic...

but his technique is something i believe is one of the best ways ive seen.

He doesnt FORCE submission he becomes the leader... and people try to treat dogs like humans and think that our dogs will love us for that we are WRONG.

DOGS ARE DOGS people are people... that is the problem people think treating a dog as a dog isnt right for some odd reason...

***DEEEP BREATH***

submission is not a bad thing either it means that the dog submits to you. Not submission like a Fighting armlock submission. But the dog realizes he is lower in the "pecking" order. DOGS CANNOT BE EQUAL to you... they are either above or below you. BUT!!! the thing is dogs ACTUALLY LOVE THIS SYSTEM. Its in there blood to either be a follower or a leader... so if you fail to lead he will try by being stubborn, aggressive, demanding.. they dont get sad =( because they arent the leader, infact most dogs are born to be followers so they like having a leader...

People think every other animal is all emotional and has morals like us but most animals dont. In a dog pack if there is a sick animal it gets picked on and killed or that pack abandons it for the good of the pack... they dont feel remorse that they just left a brother or sister behind.. they might feel lonely for a little before moving on but they dont know right from wrong. but im not saying dogs dont have emotions but way of thinking is completely different from ours.

Dogs that attack and maim(SP) and kill people dont know they just did something wrong. and on the flip side if a dog swims out and saves a drowning boy they dont feel all noble and proud of what he did. Though people will praise the living crap out of the dog so it will know that whatever it just did got lots of praise and so it will try to do it again.

Dogs dont know what cruelty means, they dont think about the future. They are ANIMALS and to love them we need to love them as what they are NOT what we want them to be. Dogs will be dogs and people need to understand this and accept this.

Try reading his book for a little more insight into his methods and if you find a flaw tell me because i sure as hell cant.

Every person will have a different view and methodology(SP) on the best way to treat a dog but if you look at some of the top well known trainers etc one thing in common is that you must treat a dog as a dog. Just the same way you treat a flower like a flower and an person like a person... or a bear like a bear... we dont pretend that bears are humans and try to hug them... nor do we pretend flowers are like people and expect them to work and pay taxes... (although some people talk to flowers :) ) its not inhumane to accept that your families dog/baby is in fact a DOG... *gasp that doesnt mean you cant love him/her but the way you love the dog might not be healthy for the dog...

And EVERYONEs advice whether a famous person like cesar or the monks of new skete, or your neighbor should be taken with a grain of salt and then some... take what you learn,read,hear and think about it and apply it to your life in the ways that work for you. There is no one perfect way to handle everydog and every owner... so be open to all the knowledge out there whether you agree or disagree and try to get something from it...

[Becky]

He's not teaching dog psychology, he's teaching "dominance." He doesn't go into the kinds of aggression (for instance, I 've seen him 'correct' a fear aggressive dog which can often escalate the fear aggression), he doesn't talk about reactivity, he doens't talk about medical problems that cause dogs to sometimes be aggressive, he doesn't talk about operant conditioning, and doesn't usually give ideas for HOW much exercise certain dogs need... and, most importantly, he doesn't actually act much like an "alpha." Alpha dogs and wolves very, very rarely use force, they also don't obsess about who's the pack leader. THe beta does all of that. Every one of his shows is about how humans are failed alphas and that dogs are always status seeking... which, frankly, isn't always the case and can sometimes leader to more problems.

He doesnt FORCE submission he becomes the leader... and people try to treat dogs like humans and think that our dogs will love us for that we are WRONG.


Actually, he forces alpha roles. He forces heels. He yanks choke collars. He drags scared dogs into situations that they're terrified of. He pinches and pokes, and tells people to use their foot to get an aggressive dog's attention. He uses an e-collar on a prey driven dog. That, to me, is definately force. I'm saying that everything he does is force, but he does enough to make it a major part of his teachings.

As for submission... well, a lot of the dogs I see "submit" to him also lose their spirit (i.e. the fire goes out of their eyes). I don't want my dog to shut down and become clingy and focused on my every need and want.

DOGS ARE DOGS people are people... that is the problem people think treating a dog as a dog isnt right for some odd reason...

I agree, it makes me sick when I see people treat a dog like a human child.


Finally, a lot of top trainers and behaviorists have moved away from the exact thing Mr. Milan is teaching because, at the very least, we should start with the least adversive/confrontational methods and work up as needed.

I will read his book when/if it eventually goes on sale.

[retriever crazy]

On Retriever's idea about the "right way" to train dogs, this is the best I can think of. Being a teacher, there is no one way to teach kids. Some kids do better with visual representations, some oral, some hands-on, etc. Basically, what works for one child won't work for every child. You need to differentiate your teaching to the child. I think this same idea applies to dogs. Different methods work well for different dogs, and a truly good trainer would be able to determine which technique will work best for a particular dog. Just an idea... Let me know what you guys think!


thanks!! thats very true and i forgot to write that in there

[Georgia]

1) Dogs are dogs. They aren't furry four-footed humans and they aren't babies. They're dogs and should be treated as such.

2) The human needs training as much or more than the dog does.

The more I read on this the more I think these statements hit the nail on the head.

For example, before I watched the show I mostly assumed all you need to do with dogs is praise and use "no" when appropriate. After watching the show I realize how walks might be the single best training thing to do with your dog and not just for the excercise. Maybe I'm brainwashed but I'm starting to believe that the walk is a huge mental benefit for a dog.

Like most things I enjoy the show and pick and choose what I believe and what I don't. I really see no difference between the show, a book, a trainer, or any other source - you end up buying into some things and not so much on others. I think he's got a good point about addressing problems prior to the escalation (where the dog is beyond learning) which he calls the "calm submissive state of mind". I also believe in his views on projecting yourself as a leader but I'm not so sure about all his stuff on "energy". I do know that most good trainers are able to get results quickly with almost all dogs and it's not because they pinch or treat but almost totally because of attitude, posture, and demeaner.

[skunkstripe]

Pittiegirl, I am going to respectfully disagree with you about how people can learn.

"No one can learn about dog training from a television show."

This was a blanket statement. You can learn to cook, tile your bathroom, AND train a dog from television. It depends on the care that was taken to create the program.

I might point out that I am an ex-professor, I taught for 7 years, and when I left my last position, I had 600 freshman in my auditorium. I have given some thought to facilitating the learning process. I was also one of the first in my department to offer online animated lecture notes and interactive quizzes for my students to self-evaluate their progress. Learning from a book requires active mental participation / motivation on the part of the student. Unfortunately, most students nowadays have had their brains so fried and their attention spans so reduced by the strobe-like pace of the TV they watch, they either try to learn from books by highlighting the sections they find relevant or copying the pages they like. It is too bad that sleeping with it under their pillow is not effective. The only reason that the kids like interactive DVDs is because it mimics playing a game. TV has its value in that you have the opportunity to watch something being done correctly.

"Television shows are edited first for higher ratings, second to fit in a certain time slot. Learning from a book or DVD is a whole different concept."

We must live in two different worlds as far as TV goes. Or you were making an assumption about what kind of television shows I was referring to. I was not talking about the :jerry: trash that you see on many channels nowadays.

I am reinforced in my conviction that it was a GOOD IDEA to get rid of cable TV. We live in a mountainous area and when we had cable, my two stepdaughters would lay around like slugs on the couch watching c***. We were paying about $45/mo for 150 channels, right 150 channels of c***. The split second the younger one moved out we dumped it. Now we have a roof antenna and get about 15 channels. The best ones are PBS from VT and NH.

[AnimalHouse]

well IMO, I LOVE him, Granted Like the previous post said, It isnt something you can do on your own. No matter which technique you use, I would want a professional to help,and assist, cause even in normal trainin techniques*if there is one anymore* you are normally asked to only do what you are taught at class.. and not try to go ahead of ureself, cause you could knock ure self down a notch or two.. *at least the trainer I worked with did*. I dunno, I have mixed feeling, Everyone rants and raves about him,and I Love his techniques.. But, I have a hard time implementing them in my house ,cause he didnt help me personally.. I Hope that makes sense. I use the Alpha role technique, and it works great in my house, specially when I first got my AmStaff... Sooo I guess it is everyones opinion on what they like..

Good luck!

[Becky]

Some food for thought on the "Alpha" roll.

http://dogs.about.com/cs/basictraining/a/alpha_roll.htm

http://www.bogartsdaddy.com/Bouvier/Training/alpha-roll_no.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_roll


Alpha rolls are also completely man-made and do not occure for the purpose we intend for them, in the wild or in a dog pack setting.

[s4m222]

dogs in nature dont really get scared of things and remember to be "scared" they remember to stay away if something hurts them say a porcupine but they dont get scared... they get all worked up because people make a big fuss when a dog hurts itself and so the dog thinks its a big deal too...

its like when you have a baby and if no one is around or no one is paying attention to it and it falls over it just gets up and keep doing its thing but if someone run over and is like OHH are you okay poor thing ... the baby starts crying...

i guess we can all point fingers and find mistakes in even a professionals method... but then again they have studied in there respective fields and must be doing what works the best and what they believe is the best... and so i say its always good to be open and take what we can from it.

"Actually, he forces alpha roles. He forces heels. He yanks choke collars. He drags scared dogs into situations that they're terrified of. He pinches and pokes, and tells people to use their foot to get an aggressive dog's attention. He uses an e-collar on a prey driven dog. That, to me, is definately force. I'm saying that everything he does is force, but he does enough to make it a major part of his teachings."

not trying to argue but wanted to clarify... he uses the foot to tap the dog while walking to distract the dog when it starts focusing on something they shouldnt... its no different from clapping or saying NO when a dog does something wrong.. only its a physical "tap" which distracts better.. and he uses the foot since the dog cant see it and so the dog goes "HUH what was that?" and stops doing whatever it might have done (chasing a dog, running after kids etc...)

never seen him use an electric collar.. hmmm but i might be wrong.. the reason for a choke collar is some dogs are more tolerant of just a simple tug of the leash and so they think something a bit more "umph" he doesnt use them in the traditional sense of having the collar choke the dog if it tries to run...

Also the main focus that he repeats over and over is that walking the dog is of the greatest importance and to walk a dog without being walked yourself you have to be the "leader" ... i guess it goes along with "a tired dog is a happy dog"

I am not trying to argue by any means becky just clarify=) :cheers:

but i do recommend you have a look at the book when given the chance. If there is a barnes and nobles they should be on sale for 30% plus 10% more for members so around 15-20 dollers.. not sure if all B&N stores run the same sales though... At the least you can find more reasons to disagree with him :)

[Becky]

I'm honestly on a fairly tight budget right now, so I can't buy his book... I also have others I'd like to get first as I'm not anywhere near done training my pooch :) ... like the DVD Really Reliable Recall by Leslie Nelson, Don't Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryor, and The Dog Listener by Jan Fennell.

dogs in nature dont really get scared of things and remember to be "scared" they remember to stay away if something hurts them say a porcupine but they dont get scared...

I don't want to really argue this point... but, dogs do feal very real fear, and that fear can linger with them for a long time. I bought an undersocialized malamute pup that would flip out on sight of a neighbor or other dog... that's fear (note that she'd never been injured by a stranger or other dog). If you corner a dog without the proper socialization and/or a bad history, you're likely to get a fear aggressive response. Also, I might add, that being fearful of unfamiliar things is a survival instinct of the grey wolf, a very likely ancestor of our pup pals. I agree that you don't want to make a fuss over these instances because, without knowing is, you're rewarding that response... but, ignoring the fact that dogs can and do get fearful can be a very big mistake... especially if you end up with a fear aggressive dog.

not trying to argue but wanted to clarify... he uses the foot to tap the dog while walking to distract the dog when it starts focusing on something they shouldnt...

Yes, I understand the foot tap... however, it, to me, is a VERY good way to get the handler bitten (i.e. redirected aggression).

the reason for a choke collar is some dogs are more tolerant of just a simple tug of the leash and so they think something a bit more "umph" he doesnt use them in the traditional sense of having the collar choke the dog if it tries to run...


Ahh, yes, more umph but without trying another method first. I've only seen one show where he hasn't used some kind of choker... that one was a head halter. There are much better methods to keep a dog from pulling than a choker, especially when used incorrectly, have cause a good deal of dogs to have tracheal damage. A Gentle Leader head collar, Easy Walk harness... or even a prong would be better options that wouldn't hurt the dog or cause as much damage. On top of all this, a dog pulling the leash has nothing to do with being a leader. Feral dog packs don't have leashes and collars... heck, the alpha doesn't even obsess over being first in line. I might also add that you can teach many a dog loose leash walking with a flat collar and clicker... there's no need to use a choker in most instances.

As for getting a tired dog... an hour long walk still isn't anywhere near what most medium-large breed dogs need... maybe a 2 hour run. He also doesn't say anything about mental stimulation the majority of the time (if at all).

I don't take any of it as arguing, just a friendly debate :D :D

Finally, I want to add that I'm not trying to attack Milan, I just wish he'd at least start off with less adversive techniques and really get into why a dog acts like it does. Not everything is about the dog being status seaking... to many dogs get labled "dominant" as it is without Milan, when there is another issue at hand. He's, honestly, using 20-30 year old methods. I also can't help but cringe when I see him give a leash correction to an obviously fear aggressive dogs... that only proves the dog right... "that thing IS something to fear because every time I see it my neck hurts."

[Georgia]

Not to drag this out anymore but I forgot I had this picture. It's Georgia in front of TV actually watching Caesar. What's sad is that just about 10 seconds before this I had the most perfect picture ever. Georgia was sitting with her nose right at the TV just like the old RCA dogs and Caesar was on the screen. While grabbing the camera she turned to see what I was doing and I lost the Kodak moment.

http://mrmatt.smugmug.com/photos/74311861-M.jpg

[retriever crazy]

haha! cute! nice tv

[Yellow Dog]

Yah!!!LOL was he ACTUALLY watching it?

[s4m222]

rofl... so what did ur dog learn =)

[Georgia]

I can't remember exactly what happened but there must have been a scene with a dog and Caesar in it. I think Georgia heard a bark and stopped chewing on a toy and had her nose glued to the TV while sitting right in front. From the couch I had a perfect shot of the TV (with a picture of Caesar) and the dog sitting looking right at it with ears up. I'm going to regret missing that picture for a long time.