Designer dog vs. mutt

[dlambertz]

i have noticed on many websites that mutts are now being sold as designer dogs. why are people willing to pay $$$ for a mutt with no papers? if i were looking for such a dog i would check out shelters first. jmo...
i buy purebred dogs so that there is a standard that my dog will fit into. yes, i know that as with every thing there will be a variance but... in looking for a purebred there are traits that are passed down from generation to generation and will probably appear in the dog i want. a mutt/designer dog will have traits from both parents and if too many factors play in i have no idea what i am getting and i am gambling that the dog inherited only the best traits of the breeds in his lineage.
i love animals and i love mutts too.... just because they have a new name doesn't make them a high dollar dog. good breeders are breeding to the standards of the breed and not breeding to put a buck in their pocket.
stepping down off my soapbox now :)
darla

[ChipsDad]

Please post any website links that you think are selling illegitimate dogs. I am sure some of the legal people on this board will be interested to obtain such information.

:cheers:

[dlambertz]

Please post any website links that you think are selling illegitimate dogs. I am sure some of the legal people on this board will be interested to obtain such information.

:cheers:

anyone can do a search on designer dogs and find websites that are selling them. you can find designer dogs at your local shelter for a lot less money.
there is nothing wrong with a mixed breed dog...but they are still a mixed breed and should not demand the price tag a reputable breeder puts on their purebreds.

[lassie]

i found a site where Labradoodles are a £1000

[dlambertz]

ot but i just wanted to let you know how much i have always admired the collies and their dedicated owners. they are such and intelligent, beautiful breed whose grooming requirements have kept me from sharing my home with one of those wonderful creatures. somehow a shaved collie doesn't stir those childhold memories as well :)

[ChipsDad]

it doesnt seem right? why would u pay unless you were sure you were getting something worthwhile - otherwise just go to the pound!

[dlambertz]

point made :) pound dogs have been long time designer dogs...they just don't come with that huge price tag.

how are you doing with your new boy? he is sure lucky to have found you that day.

[MaryGrace]

I don't understand why these dogs are being bred, and there are dogs exactly like this (Lab/poodle mixes, pug/beagle mixes ect.) in shelters, but people are paying $1,000 dollars or so to get a mixed breed designer dog. Shelters have adorable mixes too, for MUCH less. My local shelter has dogs for $90.

[keeks62]

My friends and I call our dogs the original "hybrid" dogs. I too have been confounded by this recent phenomenon. The dogs are adorable, but I would not pay such a heafty price tag. Your run-of-the-mill mutt is also one of the hardiest dogs- often avoiding many of the genetic diseases that pure breds and designer dogs can suffer from. Don't get me wrong, I think many of the pure breds are gorgeous, I'm just a fan of the mutt.

[lassie]

I'm just a fan of the mutt.:D

And why not ;)

But why do people cross pedigree dogs of different breeds and then call them designer dogs and charge more than the pure breed:mad:
Its even sadder to think that someone will pay more for a Chi x than a CHi:rolleyes:

[bullygirl]

What amazes me is the fact that people can use a word like "Hybrid" and buyers will swoom over these pups. Mixed breed dogs, no matter the breeds are NOT Hybrids.
A "hybrid is the mixing of two different species, like a wolf and dog, or donkey and horse, or a duck and a chicken. Poodle crossed with lab is not a hybrid because they are both dogs(different breeds, yes; different species, NO), it's a mutt and that's all. And while I am a fan of all dogs, mixed or pure, I absolutely do not agree with false advertising from ignorant people who use flashy words and don't even know the definitions of them.

It's just too bad that people fall for it.

[p0g03]

Yes as all have posted already I also do not understand the boom in this.
We already have some of these dogs showing up at the shelters. One just showed up at ours of a "Puggle" at least the shelter people are smart enough just to list it as a mix breed and don't use the above catch name.
There will soon be more showing up too unfortunately as the fad begins to fade!

[Cheetah]

They're all mutts. If you mix two first generation purebreds, you get a mutt, period lmao...

[sandi]

I agree all they are , mixed breeds.

We are seeing more and more in shelters in southeastern mass

Temperment issues, health issues at young ages.

Sandi

[3 goldens]

This has been talked about on every board I am on. One lady on one of my golden boards told of a dog some friend got and paid well over $1000 for it--I just don't remember the breeds. She told her friend "You paid $1200 for a MUTT" and the friend replied "Oh, it isn't a mutt it is a XXXXXXX." I can't remember the designer name. I do remember it was small breeds and according to the post, both are known to have heart problems and knee problems.

We have 2 pure goldens, and a golden mix, Honey that we adopted for $45 from the little local humane society here in our little town of 9400. Each week when dogs are due to be gassed at the county pound they go and take 3-4 they think can be adopted. Our Honey was one of them, just an hour from being gassed. Most take her for full golden, but if you know what to look for you see she isn/t. She had HUGE chocolate eyes, slim head, slender muzzle and narrow tongue, long, long thin legs and large feet. Her feet are white and she has a white stripe that runs from the top of her head to the tip of her muzzle. My vet feels like we do, she has some sight hound, more than likely something like greyhound, whippet, or possiblily saluki. Also she runs and leaps like a gazelle, can turn in mid air, etc. Some have suggested something like border collie. So, she could be a gold hound, a goluki, a golden border, or my favorite, a goldenpet.

It realy seems a shame to purposely breed pures breeds to get these mutts when there are plenty of "accidents" waiting in pounds and shelters to be adopted. I know our Honey is no designer dog by design, but she is one accident I am glad that happened.

[dlambertz]

Just know that there are reputable breeders out there but you must do your research, ask a lot of questions, build a repore with the breeder and get all the info you can. I am hoping there are more reputable breeders than not.

in my opinion reputable breeders do NOT breed mutts. they do not get on the bandwagon to make a buck. they know their breed, show it and are into their dogs. it is very sad that people are being taken by this new rage to have a designer mutt. i have found quality purebreds at sometimes less than 1/2 the cost.

ah well there is my vent for the day....

[skunkstripe]

Well not to be picky, but if your breed two purebred dogs, you get a "mixed breed". Breeding a PB and a mix gives you a "mongrel" and anything beyond that is a "mutt". At least according to http://www.mbdca.org/
Ok forgive me, I admit it, I AM being picky. It is just that mutt sounds derogatory. And it really isn't the correct terminology.

Anyway, I think part of the problem is that most non-dog people simply have NO idea. I had a business colleague (who is a perfectly nice person) tell me recently that one of the gals he works with 'got one of them new breed of dogs...what chacallit, a PUGGLE, Yeah a PUGGLE".
I inhaled, smiled and casually said that a Puggle is not a breed.
He could not have cared less, nor did he understand.

And I think that a huge part of the problem is the AKC. There is so much fraud going on, also it is so easy to abide by the rules for registration and still sell sick or non-PB dogs to adopters, that I think the general public in the US has become disillusioned. If the AKC were to offer a quality guarantee or check up on its breeders it might be different, but as everyone says, the AKC is "only" a registry.......

Just my opinion!

[dlambertz]

Ok forgive me, I admit it, I AM being picky. It is just that mutt sounds derogatory. And it really isn't the correct terminology.

i have never thought of the term mutt as derogatory. when i think of a mutt i think of wagging tail, happy expression and exhuberance. funny what images a work will bring up...

[dogdaze]

I agree, it is really amazing to me that people will buy a designer mutt at a pet store. I think it's usually on impulse, and they can actually finance their $600-$1000 dog through the pet store. My "schnoodle" was one of these dogs, I believe. Born in a designer dog puppy mill, purchased on impulse, and then dumped in a Wal Mart parking lot when she was no longer a cute puppy. When I got her she had been stray, sick, and scared, and about to be euthanized by the pound. Anyway, the pet store in my town sells all the popular new mixes at high dollar prices (On sale today! only $650! We will finance!). Sombody's going to be making payments on a dog that they dumped in the country somewhere or took to the Humane Society because they didn't want it anymore. Who is to blame? The stupid consumer or the pet store?

P.S. I love Cracker, even if she is a designer mutt and crazy as a loon!

[lassie]

well i cant believe that people will pay more for a mongrel , a so called designer dog, mutt or whatever you call it, than a pure bred sorry. Why do people do it?????????????????

[ruffian]

I personally think they are uneducated, and unwilling to read a book and research before they buy. I really like it when some tells me all about their purebred cockapoo, oh and dont for get the hybrid vigor,LOL.

[Cheetah]

^ LMFAO for people like that (the ones who actually BELIEVE that a cockapoo is a breed), I go "Oh, I have a mutt too. Aren't they great?" Sometimes they get all annoyed because their dog "certainly is NOT a mutt." Other times they get curious and go "What do you mean?" and I explain to them lol...

If a cockapoo is a breed, then so is my "LabraDollie" lol...

[lassie]

then so is my "LabraDollie" lol...
I like that LOL:p

[lassie]

Lets start a new thread thinking up designer breed names:D

[dlambertz]

Lets start a new thread thinking up designer breed names:D

did i read on this forum about poodledoo's =))

[lassie]

did i read on this forum about poodledoo's =))
what the heck's one of them then???

[lassie]

hows a bout a spinpoo

spinoni x poodle

[skunkstripe]

I'll cheat and post a link....
http://www.nanceestar.com/DogCrossbreedPage10.html
:D

[dlambertz]

what the heck's one of them then???

a poodle poodle cross... when i read it i laughed so hard...that is about what designer dogs will be soon!

[ruffian]

I think the doodlepoo was mine, I really get aggravated with the useless cross breeding of dogs. I am on another forum and a guy came on to tell us his newdle was the best dog ever, yep a newfie poodle cross, uggg. Well his best dog ever is a pup of all of 4 months, LOL. I find that most of the people that brag about their designer breeds are always talking about puppies, why is that? If these things are the best dogs ever why are they only the best as puppies?

but the one that POed me the most was the shocker a shiba inu cocker cross, they look like ugly mutts, and the 2 pictured look nothing alike.

and lets not forget the uncompromisable (insert sarcasm) The American Canine Hybrid Club some people are either stupid or really gullible, or maybe illiterate

[dlambertz]

i knew i read the doodlepoo somewhere. i laughed hysterically! i buy purebred dogs for a reason...not snobby but to know what traits, looks and personality i am most likely to have. it is not that i think mixed breed dogs are not loveable, smart or less of a dog...but they should not be intentionally bred and become a designer breed...just my take ;)

[skunkstripe]

I understand the "logic"that supposedly started the doggie-doodles and mixie-poos (alergies) but Why in the World would anyone cross a Shiba Inu (half wild) with a Cocker Spaniel (hairy and eager to please)????

[dlambertz]

allergies..ok so there is the wheaten terrier, the poodle, which comes in 3 different sizes, the yorkie, the maltese, i am sure many more breeds but those are just off the top of my head. in my opinion there is only one reason to breed a dog and that is to better the breed. unplanned pregnacies do happen but there is no reason for it. spay and neuter early and of course, responsible breeders do not have unplanned litters.
i just hate the fact that thousands upon thousands of dogs are euthanized every year...purebred, designer dogs registered and not. at my local shelter alone they average euthanizing over 3000 dogs a year. i live near a little city of only 125,000. that is a lot of dogs.

if a person started being responsible in the purchasing of their pets the breeders who are breeding out of greed would be put out of business. again just my take on things and everyone is entitled to their opinion...that is mine

[skunkstripe]

Darla that is really horrible. I am not sure that it is the fault of the greedy breeders who have jumped on the designer dog bandwagon. My guess is that where you have a culture of people spaying and neutering, that it is less likely. I live in a part of the US that is considered to have a 'dog shortage' (yes, you read correctly) so we import dogs from the south and midwest to our shelters.
I think the lack of dogs in the shelters here (expect for the ones that do not get along with cats, little kids, other dogs etc, that there are plenty of) is what drives people to the pet stores.
JMHO

[dlambertz]

you are correct when you say the midwest has lots of breeders... and puppy mills! iowa and missouri top the list from the last reports i had access too. i wish before people bred their dogs or before they didn't spay or neuter them they would take a tour of their local shelter on the day it has to be decided who is going to be taken from their kennel to the other area of the shelter.

i love animals so much and it is so hard to watch a dog being taken to the area that smells of death or to watch a horse loaded on the truck to the slaughter house. it is our responsiblity to breed only the best of the bunch and not breed because we have an animal with the right parts.

i just bought a new mare.... she is very highly bred, nice to look at and has the right color too. yesterday i called my large animal clinic to price spaying her :)

[dogdaze]

I'll cheat and post a link....
http://www.nanceestar.com/DogCrossbreedPage10.html
:D

That cracked me up! Thanks for sharing it!

[ruffian]

I personally don't care if someone calls me snotty for owning purebreds, that is their problem, just because I read a book and decided that I wanted a dog that looked and acted like this go suck a rock. I have found that almost everyone that has said that to me also says crap like hybrid vigor, so I know they are mostly clueless anyway. I have nothing against mutts, but the morons that buy them from money hungry arseholes then run around telling everyone about their new breed of dog make me nuts.

And really I have never found a good reason to cross breed anything, allergies, like they didn't have allergies 300 years ago???

Hair-less Dog Breeds
Xoloitzcuintle (Mexican Hairless)
American Hairless Terrier
Chinese Crested (Hairless)
Peruvian Inca Orchid

Some of Single-Coated Dog Breeds
Chinese Crested (Powder Puff)
Poodles (all sizes)
Schnauzers (all sizes)
Portuguese Water Dog
Bichon Frise
Soft-coated Wheaten Terrier
Coton de Tulear
Kerry Blue Terrier
West Highland White Terrier
Bedlington Terrier
Maltese
Havanese


So the people that started crossing the labs with poodles was for blind allergy sufferers, what about a standard poodle they can't lead the blind? And a Newfoundland Poodle cross is an 80 lb Giant Schnauzer isn't big enough? To me with over 300 real true breeding dog breeds worldwide why cross breed any more? And for those who say "all dog breeds started out as cross breeds" well yes and no, some were purposely breed for a look, Min Pins, they wanted a dog that looked like a Doberman just smaller. But most breeds evolved into their looks, the looks were second to their function. While breeding for certain attributes has long been practiced the first dog show on record was held in 1886, not that long ago considering how long the dog has been mans companion. Today looks are more important than function to some, but true breed enthusiasts breed for beauty and function, thus competing in both conformation and trials like obedience, agility, lure coursing etc. Cross breeds are just that, they do not breed a yorki poodle cross to a yorki poodle cross to make more "yorki-poos" they again cross breed the yorkie and poodle. Therefore they will never be a purebred.

[dogdaze]

I don't automatically think people are snotty or snobby just because they own purebred dogs. It's what someone says, you know, a dig. When I said that Cracker is a schnoodle, I was just describing her, like saying min pin or yorkie. Same thing. Hey, I just love dogs, canines, chow hounds, whatever you want to call them. And, I got my "schnoodle" from a rescue, I did not buy her from a breeder or pet store. I saw her pathetic picture on petfinder and fell in love.
Here is her petfinder pic and Cracker today, kind of a before and after deal.
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g37/darraenorling/whiteschnauzer.jpg
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g37/darraenorling/MyPictures0025.jpg
Face it, we are all dog lovers.1

[dlambertz]

, just because I read a book and decided that I wanted a dog that looked and acted like this go suck a rock.

very well spoken.... i read and i researched immensely before deciding what breeds would fit into my lifestyle and let me tell you ... while i love mia and all her traits...an afghan is not for most people. while looks may draw you to a certain breed, a person better research the rest of the dog to see if they will fit into their lifestyle.

if more people read a book we would not have to euthanize so many wonderful pets every year. puppies grow up into dogs.... some require vigorous exercise, while the next may shed on your expensive sofa, or chew a wood bannister in your new house (shame on you mia!) this is all part of being a pet owner. mia was not sent looking for a new home because she forgot where her rawhide was one morning... i am really glad that stage is over!

anyway ruffian ...that was a great post :)

[skunkstripe]

I have found that almost everyone that has said that to me also says crap like hybrid vigor, so I know they are mostly clueless anyway.

Actually I have found that on a lot of dog boards, the moment someone posts about how mixed breeds are generally healtheir than purebreds, someone comes along and puts words in the poster's mouth about how they are referring to 'hybrid vigor' (which they never mentioned) and they then proceed to tear apart the 'hybrid vigor' argument.

This ignores two basic facts.
1) Encouraging breeding for conformation only tends to ruin any breed of dog. The reason is that there is too much politics and whims of judges, at least with the AKC. I support this opinion with the following links:
http://www.terrierman.com/rosettestoruin.htm
http://www.terrier.com/jrtca/noakc.php3
http://www.bordercollie.org/akc.html
http://www.dpcc.ca/articles/dpcc-temperament-type-movementl.htm

2) Nature favors survival, not sickness.
Most genes for diseases are recessive. If this were not the case, there would be no life on this planet, because by now at some point everyone would have bred with someone else with some disease. So if you take two dogs, each with a gene for some disease (and I am not referring to something like hip dysplasia, which is a skeletal problem and not a pathological one), it is NOT the case that the offspring will be likely to have both diseases, or as many of the 'hybrid vigor' attackers would have you believe, they would even have a 50-50 chance of contracting the inheritable diseases. The most likely case is that they might pass on the recessive gene to their offspring. This can happen with properly bred purebreds as well, since it is very difficult to know what recessive genes are hiding in an animal's DNA regardless of how well you test.

And if someone wants to call their dog a "Puggle" instead of always having to say "A Pug crossed with a Beagle" every time someone asks, I am not going to get my knickers in a knot over it.

Just my opinion.

[dogdaze]

Maybe dogs should be bred for temperment, rather than appearance. Just a thought.

Thanks for all the great information, Skunkstripe.

[dlambertz]

Maybe dogs should be bred for temperment, rather than appearance. Just a thought.

in theory that may work but you would end up with over/under bites. bad hips, bad knees. my dogs are ofa certified have a 2yr guarantee on hips and have a 2yr health guarantee.

a temperment would not give me good health which is what i look for in lines that i purchase

[skunkstripe]

dogdaze, there are some breeders whom I respect very much who flaunt the AKC conformation slightly.
There is one gal who breeds the most beautiful smooth collies. They are also a steady source of guide dogs for her local chapter who trains them. But they do not win AKC conformation titles because the ears are not 'tipped' right as is currently in fashion. In her words, there are smooth collies winning AKC titles who would not recognize a sheep it it were to dance on their snouts.
This is also the reason you have the 'show lines' and the 'field lines' for labrador retrievers. The 'show lines' are the ones who are susceptible to hip dyplasia. The field lines are the ones who can actually run through the woods and swim to get a fallen bird.
This is one of those 'hot button topics'....

[Sara]

I had a client once who wanted a Toy Fox Terrier as a companion. I tried to talk her into looking into the local shelters here, but she said she knew that this time she wanted a registered purebred. I suggested that she check to see if the breeder(s) had titles, and in what. I told her the "Earth dog" breeders probably wouldn't be best for her (she's an elderly lady,) but got one from a very well pedigreed line that competes in these competitons. Now she complains when the dog brings her "gifts" of dead baby rats and birds...I told her so.

...I guess that was a little off topic.

[dlambertz]

i always have gifts.... snakes, birds, etc... if you want to be safe tonight you don't want to come into my yard today :)

[dlambertz]

This is one of those 'hot button topics'....

i am really glad to see this is being discussed without any flaming it is a refreshing change from most forums :)

[lassie]

[QUOTE=dogdaze]Maybe dogs should be bred for temperment, rather than appearance. Just a thought.

Mine are both when i breed:rolleyes:

[dlambertz]

Mine are both when i breed:rolleyes:

which is how it should be... i hate when there is a craze...think dalamations after 101 dalamations was released. people got on the band wagon and temperment didn't matter at all ... if the dog had spots the dog was bred...very sad!

[ruffian]

I agree that dogs should be bred for temperment but health is also a huge issue. And just because you cross bred 2 dogs is not going to make the pups any healthier since like everyone says they are recessive, in both breeds usually, crossbreeding isn't going to fix it sorry. I also happen to agree that function is important, and stated that in my post that most breeds compeat in both conformation and trials. I know severl breeders that will not breed unless their are titles on both ends of the name and they have passed health testing. The important part is that I have never found a mutt breeder doing health, temperment, conformation and trials with their dogs. Why is that?? Because these are not now nore ever will be breeds they are mutts putting a cutsie name on it doesn't change that fact.

At least when I go research breeders, which I am doing now for both Afghans and Bouviers, I can look at their dogs and the dogs in their pedigree and have a decent idea what their dog will look like, what functions the dog may be capable of, the health, longevity and temperment. To me these are important and well worth paying for, now you show me just 1 "designer dog" "breeder" that cares enough for their "breed" to do any of this and I will back them. You won't find one because they don't think that it is necessary because the pups are cute. BLECK.

And crossing a highly active go all day breed, like a beagle, with a breed with cronic breathing problems, like a pug, is a genetic mess and a problem waiting to happen.

[dogdaze]

A good tempered, healthy, beautiful dog is really special. Purebred or mutt. Gus is good tempered but homely and rather delicate healthwise. Cracker is cute and very healthy, but crazy as a loon. I love them, though, with all their issues, but it's a good thing they can't reproduce. The shelters are full of dogs like mine.

[Zoes_mama]

And for those who say "all dog breeds started out as cross breeds" well yes and no, some were purposely breed for a look, Min Pins, they wanted a dog that looked like a Doberman just smaller.
I read that Min Pins were around first, and that many people make that mistake, thinking that they're "miniature dobes" But the Dobe is a "man made" breed. A man named Dobermann crossed some breeds to get todays Doberman. I'll have to find the article. I may be wrong...it might have been another breed that people mistaken call a miniature dobe, but I'm pretty sure it was the minpin.
Anyways, I agree with all of this. Mutts can make awesome dogs if you're not expecting to know their temperament, health, etc. And I don't think people should be breeding and crossing different breeds, slapping a fancy name on them and overcharging uneducated, gullible people. It's wrong, it's disgusting. I do love Zoe and Bear to bits though, and they are MUTTS. Though I do know what Bear is, Zoe remains a mistery, and I love her anyway. She's loud, excitable, lovable, loyal and protective and I couldn't ask for anything more :)

[Zoes_mama]

I'll cheat and post a link....
http://www.nanceestar.com/DogCrossbreedPage10.html
:D
Forgot to mention, my dad got that in an email just after we got Zoe and Bear. I laughed my butt off. It was great!! :D

[dlambertz]

i love dogs i just would like to see them stop being bred to everything under the sun. it makes no sense to breed a mix and most of the registered dogs i have seen should be spayed or neutered as well.

as i see it people are breeding these designer dogs out of greed and greed only. why else would you breed a mixed breed?

[lassie]

i love dogs i just would like to see them stop being bred to everything under the sun.
as i see it people are breeding these designer dogs out of greed and greed only. why else would you breed a mixed breed?
:( http://bestsmileys.com/clapping/1.gif

[dlambertz]

:( http://bestsmileys.com/clapping/1.gif

i love your new avatar pic :) lassie was always one of my favorite shows growing up and i will always hold a collie dear to my heart...

[Jake2006]

Hear Hear I think the picture is really beautiful - and Lassie was always dear to my heart too - and RinTinTin and of course Champion the Wonder Horse.

I love all dogs, purebred, mongrel, wild dogs ... its people I have a problem with LOL

[Sara]

Hear Hear I think the picture is really beautiful - and Lassie was always dear to my heart too - and RinTinTin and of course Champion the Wonder Horse.

I love all dogs, purebred, mongrel, wild dogs ... its people I have a problem with LOL

LOL. People are my problem too!! I LOVE Lassie, right along with Mister Ed! :D

[3 goldens]

Okay, I think it is awful to pay $$$$$$$ for these designer dogs. I think many breeds are being cross bred that should not--where there is a common "defect" or problem that runs in both breeds. However, I have done a little looking into this and there may be some very valid reasons for cross breeding of some of the dogs. I decided to do a little looking into this.

One breeder i found (no, I have no intention of getting one, my 3 are plenty for me) raises Goldendoodles. She is very selective of her breeding dogs, they must have been certified for hips, knees, elbows, eyes, and i can't remember what all else. They are even tested for some rare blood disease. Also, most are from champion backgrounds. The females are all goldens, the males all poodles. All are AKC. She has a two year health guarantee on them and she will refund you full purchase price if one does develop any genetic problem. If you decide to keep the dog, she will refund half of your purchase price.


And to get one of her dogs, YOU have to pass her questionaaire as to why you want a goldendoodle, is your yard fenced,, what do you expcet of this dog, etc, etc. Aslo you are required to get the dog spayed or neutered. She also tells that all will shed to a various degree. The straight hair shed more than the wavy and the wavy shed more than the curly. She does not try to pass them off as shedless.

And as said above, almost, if not all of todays dogs were "designer dogs" at some point. I read that a yorkies come from crossing maltese and a terrier. I have no idea what the purpose in that was, but without it, there would be no yorkies today.

Also, many "breeds" have been around many, many years, but only recently did the AKC recognize them as a breed, so I guess until the AKC says a breed is a breed, it is just a mutt. The Nova Scotian Duck Tolling Dog is one that comes to mine.

I hate to think that if the Tweed Spaniel had not been crossed with a Wavy Coated Retriever, I would not have my goldens today.

Dont get me wrong, I am not for all these zillion different kinds of designer dogs, but as i said, some may have valid purposes. I understand the poodle/golden mix is very smart, very good natured, and also makes great service dogs. Of course that applies to just goldens without the poodle thrown in. But I do belive the mix does tend to shed less--and goldens DO SHED.

[ruffian]

okay but no one has ever given me one reason why a standard poodle could not serve as a service dog that truly doesn't shed.

I have not seen any good reason to create a new breed, only greed.

[dlambertz]

I understand the poodle/golden mix is very smart, very good natured, and also makes great service dogs. Of course that applies to just goldens without the poodle thrown in. But I do belive the mix does tend to shed less--and goldens DO SHED.

it also applies to the poodle so why do we need to mix them? there is no consistency to the breed and until they are 6-7 generation goldendoodles meaning the goldendoodle is crossed with the goldendoodle, there will be no consistency.

the breeder sounds like a good breeder... the same health guarantee and testing i have when i purchase but... why is she breeding a mixed breed? did you ask her? it is not to improve a breed... and whatever answer she may give you with whatever testing she does...it is to make money. now that is my opinion and i am not going to try to make you swallow it but to me there is no other reason to make a designer dog...

[dlambertz]

okay but no one has ever given me one reason why a standard poodle could not serve as a service dog that truly doesn't shed.

I have not seen any good reason to create a new breed, only greed.

i should have read your answer first... you were very to the point it like two sentences...me i think i had two paragraphs :)

[3 goldens]

I have two full golden retrievesr, one i registared, the other i did not. We also have a golden retriever mix we adopted (most take her for full golden, but if you know goldens it is easy to see she is not full, and we (and our vet) think sight hound, probably greyhound, whippet, possibily saluki.

I have no idea why standard poodles are not used as seeing eye dogs, etc (there may be some, but i have never heard of them). I have never owned a poodle and do not know that much about them escept they are suppose to be smart. For that matter, why can't several other breeds be used. But it seems mostly labs and goldens are used. At one time most guide dogs i saw were German shepherds, but i rarely see or hear of on now. It is labs and goldens. There must be a reason, but i do not know what it is.

There is a great demand for these goldendoodles. I do think most that breed these designer dogs are in it for the money, and only the money. But also, i do think some are actually trying to help out some folks. I came across the breeder I talked about because a lady got one of her dogs and was raked across the coals on another forum for getting a "designer mutt" and having the nerve to call it a doodle, which which is not a BREED. Well, it turns out the woman and some of her family has allegies and they wanted a dog so bad, a larger dog, and the only large one suggested was a poodle, which they didn't want. They actually wanted a golden retriever, but tha was out of the question. They did a lot of looking and research and found this breeder and got a puppy. They have had no problems with allergies with this dog.

And if we get down to brass tacks, we would not have many of our breeds today if someone had not crossed dogs in the past, and not all cross breeding was done to "better the breed". How would crossing a maltese with a terrier (breed uncertain) improve either breed? A thrird breed was developed. The same with the Tweed Spaniel and the wavy coated retriever--a third breed was developed. the golden retriever.

Please don't get me wrong, I am very against every Tom, Dick, and Harry throwing two dogs together with little thought as to genetic problems, temperment problems, etc just to see what they can come up with to see for $$$$$$$$$$$. There are plenty enough mixes in pounds (like our Honey) that can be gotten for pennies compared to this other dogs. But I do think there is room for some like the goldendoodles.

Oh, I have seen posts about the number of designer dogs that end up in pounds after they are not what the owners thought they would be. Well, i donate to a number of rescues and these are most pure blood dogs. They are given up becuase they got bigger than the owners thought, they chewed on furniture, they dug in the yard, they jumped on people, they ate more than expected, they barked, they got on furniture, they were a little rough with the kids (knock them over), they had heartworms and the owner didn't want the expense, they were old and starting to cost money at the vet, etc, etc and one of the worse, the lady got new furniture and her little teacup poodle didn't match. So the same reasons that put designer dogs in the pounds and rescues also puts full blooded dogs in the pounds and rescues. These people didn't research--they just liked the looks of a dog and got one. They didn't bother with training. These people should never have a dog of any breed.

[skunkstripe]

Well I have already spoken my piece on this topic so I do not have too much to add except for this:

I have been a member of several dog boards and have become disenchanted with all of them for one reason or another. The most common reason has been intolerance on the part of members who have been there long enough to think they own the board. Now I am here and giving this board a try. Now I am not trying to be arrogant, but I want to express a wish.

Someone will definitely come here as a newbie and post about how they just got a something-doodle and isn't he cute OR how they are thinking of getting a something-doodle and can anyone give advice.

If members flame the newbie by saying they are idiots paying huge money for a MUTT and why don't they do their research and buy from a PROPER breeder or go to their local shelter then there is a good chance that the newbie will leave and not return. It is one thing to mention it, it is another to be nasty about it. That someone may need advice later on and all that the flamers achieve is that the newbie has a bad impression of the board.

Again, I am not the board police or anything, but there are enough dog boards out there where the tone is quite rude. I guess I am asking all of you who have strong feelings about this subject to please try to maintain a dialogue with someone so that if they need to be educated, it can happen without them feeling insulted. I hope this does not sound arrogant or anything like that.

[3 goldens]

Skunkstripe, you expressed my opion exactly. I felt so sorry for that lady. She came on there so proud that they finally had a dog and NO allergy problems and she posted pictures and you could tell how crazy she was about the dog. Then she was raked over the coals and told there was no such thing as a doodle and she was just trying to be cute or to make her dog soemthing it wasn't...etc. It was really sad. She loves her doodle as much as I love my goldens, as Z loves her yorkier, as Y loves her dobie, as W loves her cocker. And they made it sound like poor C;s dog was lower than dirt, a nothing that should not be called by any name except mutt.

I defended her and her dog and her right to call it a doodle, then of course I caught it, but just ignored them. I had alread checked out sites posted about these designer dogs and some are pretty sickening. I PMed C and she gave me her breeders site, i went there, liked what I saw and read, and contacted the breeder to find out more info. I honestly believe this breeder is in the business to provide dogs that people want, mostly for reasons of health. She did admit sometimes the allergy is still there, but many times it is not.

By the way, I belong to another forum and there use to be one called skunkstripe on it. That person has not posted in a good while.

[dlambertz]

Oh, I have seen posts about the number of designer dogs that end up in pounds after they are not what the owners thought they would be. Well, i donate to a number of rescues and these are most pure blood dogs.

you are very correct... many purebred dogs are found in shelters... but do to uneducated owners just as the designer dogs. the owner bought on a whim at a pet store...(puppy mill pups here) the dog chewed their new sofa (happened to me dog is still here) the dog ate the wood bannister in the owner's new house (damn you mia.... but she is still here) the dog is bigger than planned, didn't research the breed, the dog required more extensive grooming, didn't research the breed, the dog didn't learn any basic commands, didn't spend enough time with the dog, the dog was impossible to housetrain, still the fault of the owner.

most animals in rescue or shelters are due to irresponsible owners and over population. pets take time and money.... a pet owner better have plenty of both before taking on the commitment to bring a pet, designer or purebred into their home.

[dlambertz]

skunkstripe i thought the tone here was good...in fact i commented on it. i never seen anyone call anyone an idiot (i may have missed it and even skimmed over the thread again)

if someone left this forum because we discussing the price someone would pay for a mixed breed i am sorry but i know people who think i am nuts for what i paid for some of my purebreds too. i love mixed breed dogs and think all dogs deserve to be loved and cared for... i just do not agree with breeding these dogs deliberately and than selling the pups with such an expensive price tag. i am very adamant on my feelings about this. i had a dog aborted 25yrs ago when my husband was not watching her close enough while i was gone. she was a purebred basset hound i had gotten at our local shelter...she ended up pg before her spay appointment.

the other thing i always try to make sure of is that if i were suddenly killed or died that my dogs are very well behaved, house trained and know the basic commands so that if they did end up in a shelter/rescue they would be easily adoptable as a great companion animal

[3 goldens]

I have heard that after a televised dog show, people rush out to buy the winning breed and don't know two hoots in you know where about that breed. Also they see the beautiful coats on the maltese, the yorkies, the irish Setters, etc, etc and don't realize it takes a LOT of work to get the coats to look like this. They seem to think the dog is born to look just like the show dogs. When they find the expense and the time it takes to make so many of the breeds look like they do in the shows (our English setters NEVER looked like the ones in the shows, but were top quail hunting dogs) they just toss the dog aside. At least there isn't much difference between my goldens and the ones on the shows.

It is the same when a movie comes out about a certain breed dog--husky, dalmatian, golden, etc. People almost expect them to be like the dogs in the movie and are disappointed when they aren't

Honey, our adopted golden mix LOVES to dig holes in the yard. She has totally uprooted several of my plants and i get mad as a hornet at her, but I love her to peices and she has a home here forever. Besides, she turns those huge chocolate colored eyes and dips the head and my heart melts.

There is just so much to find out about a breed before investing in one, and in the case of the designer dogs, you need to know about BOTH BREEDS that produced this third one.

[dlambertz]

They seem to think the dog is born to look just like the show dogs. When they find the expense and the time it takes to make so many of the breeds look like they do in the shows (our English setters NEVER looked like the ones in the shows, but were top quail hunting dogs) they just toss the dog aside.

i saw another afghan in our city... finally... my sister said she seen him running through the backyard and he was so gorgeous... long plentiful coat. mia is still in her puppy coat :( anyway i stopped to see the dog and turns out i went to school with his owner...the dog was one huge mat period. she said her idea of grooming is to totally shave off all his hair once a year. grrr boy boy...mats hurt, are unhealthy and unnecessary. afghans do require a daily brushing...even mia in her puppy coat has to be brushed everyday to prepare her for the grooming required when her adult coat is in.

very sad that animals are always at the mercy of a human....cause sometimes we aren't their best friend....

[3 goldens]

So, you have an afghan! They are such BEAUTIFUL dogs. I have only ever seen one and this is a story you will probably like....well I hope you won't be insulted by what my then 5 (now almost 37) year old son said.

I was in the kitchen, he was playing in the back yard, and my Irish Setter was in the house. He came tearing in and said "Mommy, mommy there is something in our yard." I asked him what it was and he kinda rolled his eyes and said "It is an anteater or a baboon." At the time he had never seen either so don't know why he selected those two animals. Anyway, I went out and it was a beautiful tri colored afghan hound. She had on a color and rabies tag, but no ID tag. I got the name of the vet, shut her in the back yard and went in and called that vet's office and told him I had this tri colored afghan in my yard and gave him the tag number. A short time later I got a call from the frantic owners. Gave them directions to our house and in about 15 mintues they were there to claim their girl. What a happy reunion. Oh, she was well groomed and clean. If I remember right, the little boy had opened the door and she ran out to chase a cat or squirrel.

[dlambertz]

lol...my husband and son think she looks like a rat from the jim henson muppets *sighs* these guys are sight hounds and they turn off their hearing abilities when they spot "prey" i can't have a bird in the backyard or thankfully a snake ;) mia even catches flies! this is my beloved mia

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v208/dlambertz/6-12-6051.jpg

[skunkstripe]

skunkstripe i thought the tone here was good...in fact i commented on it. i never seen anyone call anyone an idiot (i may have missed it and even skimmed over the thread again)

Gee I hope there is no misunderstanding. I think the tone here has been pretty good too. I just hope that it stays that way!!

[3 goldens]

Mia is beautiful. They are such elegant looking dogs. I love to watch them do their strut in the show ring at dog shows. We (and our vet) have always thought Honey has sighthound--long thin legs, big feet, huge eyes. AND SHE ALSO TURNS OFF HER HEARING WHEN SHE HAS SOMETHING IN SIGHT. Once she got our cat cornered behind the hurricane boards in our garage and she paid no more attention to me than if i had been a broom stick standing there. KayCee endrf up pulling her out by her tail..and all the while she continued to try to "dig in" to stay back there.

[dlambertz]

Gee I hope there is no misunderstanding. I think the tone here has been pretty good too. I just hope that it stays that way!!

me too :) i love there is no flaming but i really hope we/i haven't chased anyone off. i would feel terrible if i did anything like that.

i hope you don't ever decide to leave this forum i enjoy your posts

[ruffian]

I am on the fence about my next dog I either want an afghan or bouvier, both to show, LOL, and evertime I think I have made up my mind I have to see a pic of the other and I want it again, dang it. No I am nnot getting a dog based on looks either, I just see the pic and think of all the reasons I want one, ahh well someday I will decide and put doen my deposit, LOL.


Sorry for highjacking the thread, LOL

I never noticed the resembalance to Rizzo the Rat, LOL.

[skunkstripe]

3goldens I did not mean to ignore you. I am not sure which dog forum you mean, since I recall that happening twice with some gal and her goldendoodle.

I definitely remember you and your posts about ProHeart 6 though.

Anyway, I have a 'mystery dog' (sounds nicer than 'mutt') and a Golden so I am happy. :)

[dogdaze]

We sometimes call Gus a UFO - You Figure it Out! But if you saw him wet, you'd see the daschound.

I joined another forum, but it's not as user friendly as this forum. Also, not very many pictures, which I really love to see.

[dlambertz]

Sorry for highjacking the thread, LOL

I never noticed the resembalance to Rizzo the Rat, LOL.

i love when threads take a new turn...must just be me :) i have never had the privilege to be around a bouvier. pretty dog... my second breed was a giant schnauzer. why or why do i pick the dogs who require so much grooming? ;)

[dlambertz]

We sometimes call Gus a UFO - You Figure it Out! But if you saw him wet, you'd see the daschound.

I joined another forum, but it's not as user friendly as this forum. Also, not very many pictures, which I really love to see.

i belong to a chihuahua forum too :) i hope you didn't join because of my discussion of ufo's or mystery dogs. love both those adjectives! i love mixed breeds and if the goldendoodle left because of me i would feel terrible.

i am just very opinionated on the breeding of dogs. i volunteered at a kill shelter for years... till i could not do it anymore. the stress is not easy to see no one seems to becoming educated at all on the spaying/neutering thing. and now with so many breeders jumping on the bandwagon of the designer dog the shelters don't have a chance on keeping up.

[dogdaze]

i volunteered at a kill shelter for years... till i could not do it anymore. the stress is not easy to see no one seems to becoming educated at all on the spaying/neutering thing. and now with so many breeders jumping on the bandwagon of the designer dog the shelters don't have a chance on keeping up.
I completely understand. And now I've read that the feral dog population is out of control in many cities. If the dogs are dangerous, they have no chance of being allowed to live. Some people are actually trapping, neutering and releasing them. But in a pack, I think they could be dangerous. I sure wouldn't want a bunch of feral dogs living near my neighborhood.

[lassie]

returning to the designer dog theme....;)

here in the uk we now have the term "teacup" when describing a breed do you have that in the USA????? I HATE it:eek:

[dlambertz]

yep... a teacup chihuahua... check the breed standard they weigh from 2-6lbs and the smaller are now being referred to as a teacup. please *shakes head* zoey is about 4 lbs so right in the middle of a BIG dog and a "teacup"

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v208/dlambertz/miaandz.jpg

[lassie]

dahhhhhhhhhhhhhh . everything here i s now teacup. poodle chi ... WHY???????????? ££££££££££££ spring to mind.

[ruffian]

Teacup is not a real size for any breed, anymore than royal poodle was, or oriental shih tzu. Look at the breed standards from any of the parent clubs, the AKC or the Canadian Kennel Club you will find no mention of "teacup" as an accepted size. You will find parent clubs with pages about why breeding a small breed smaller can cause serious health problems. And acording to the AKC breed standard is for Chihuahua's to be under 6 lbs. By that standard there can really be no "teacup" as there is no size for them to be under. The Canadian Kennel Club has a size limit of 4-6 lbs. If you really want a pet smaller than that there are ferrets and rats go get one of them.

[skunkstripe]

Please don't get me started, becauase the "teacup" issue is one that makes me boiling mad.

I have been known to tell people that if a 5 lb dog is too big for them, they should get a guiniea pig.

Or that "Teacups" are bred by choosing the runts of the litter, so the odds are that they will NOT be healthy.


Sheesh!!

[lassie]

you are sooooooooooh right "teacups" im my mind are RUNTs . but p*** pay high prices for these runts WHYYYYYYYYY?????

[3 goldens]

My neighbors have a female that only weights a little over 2 pounds and a male that weights 6 pounds (Chi's) and they had 4 pups a year ago last Dec. Two are tiny like the mom, two are big like the dad. They ended up keeping the tiny male and the tiny female.

I guess this shows that even when a breed is established, people aren't happy. They want toy poodles and chis, etc to be smaller, doxies to be longer, pugs to be shorter. I saw on TV where so many pugs have so much problems delivering pups that C-sectins are starting to be the norm....all because of the shortened body. I believe it was Animal Planet's That's My Baby.

[dlambertz]

My neighbors have a female that only weights a little over 2 pounds and a male that weights 6 pounds (Chi's) and they had 4 pups a year ago last Dec.

and anyone breeding chi's and probaby most toy breeds knows you should have a larger female and a smaller male. the chi breeders i know (two) don't even breed females that are 4lbs let alone smaller ones and never to a larger male....

[ruffian]

3 goldens you are right, Akita's were a breeds for a few thousand years in Japan, yet in America the standard is so different that a true Japanese type Akita is almost imposable in the AKC and CKC. And in the FCI they have been divided into 2 breeds, the Japanese Akita and the Great Japanese Dog (formerly the American Akita). I can honestly see a future where this happens to the Labrador Retriever if the parent club doesn't regain control of their breed, the show lab and the field lab are hardly distinguishable as the same breed now. It is a serious problem with many working breeds, and a large number of people that want a true working dog will not buy an American bred dog, they see them as soft and unable to work these include Rottweilers, German Shepherds, Labrador Retrievers and many others.

[3 goldens]

That goes for Golden Retrivers as well. They are classified as field and conformation and field are not shown because they do not meet the "standards.: In fact, there is a lot of talk on the golden forums that since Poodles, Beagles, etc, are divided into at least two sizes, cockers are divided into 3 colors (putting 3 cockers against every other single breed in the group), doxies and chis, etc are divided into at 2 or 3 groups according to coat and size (6 breeds of doxies), then why isn't there a group for the conformation and a group for the field goldens

They always say "The standard is the same except for size" or "The standard is the same except for color" or "coat".

As said, I do not think every Tom, Dick or Harry should throw two dogs together and see what pops out to be sold for mega bucks, and I hate puppy mills. If a breed of dog is altered to become shorter, longer, different coat, then it is not the origianal breed--they are not shown as one breed, but as 2 to 6 depending. The breed is being "redone" because someone wants something different.

[Jake2006]

I found a Porkie The Porkie (Poodle x Yorkshire Terrier) is the smallest, up to about 11 inches high and weighing 5-10kg. They have a soft wavy non-shedding coat and are usually Black or Black & Tan.

They look so so cute - don't know how much they cost this is the link for you to see their picture

http://www.pankington.co.uk/index.cfm?page=PORK

[nuevomex]

Okay, gotta step in here. I bought a "designer dog" well before I had ever heard that term. I have had purebreds: lab (hip problems), poodle(seizures) and boxer (heart attack at 5 years), wolfhound(died in sleep at 7 mos), and a Great Dane puppy whose ears were the bain of my existence. WHY do they do that to those poor dogs? I have also had "mutts".

My so called mutts were far superior to the purebreds healthwise. My border collie mix from the shelter lived to be 15 and rarely visited the vet for a health problem. My cocker mix (also from the shelter) is 15 and still living, a little slowed down, but generally in good health. HOWEVER, I did have some behavioral problems with the shelter dogs, ie. biting and the cocker can be downright mean to other dogs, not to mention abandonment issues!

This time around, after losing our beloved border collie/bernese mt dog (I think) mix after 15 years, I decided I wanted the best of both worlds. I wanted to KNOW the parents and how they were raised and by whom. I wanted the best of both worlds. I actually saw and met both his parents. A standard poodle (mom) and black lab (father). The woman I bought him from raised minitature poodles. She was selling them for her daughters. One daughter owned the lab and the other the poodle.

Thus, I chose a Labradoodle. Because they are 1. smart, 2. don't shed, 3. and are HEALTHY. I also saw the ads online. No way was I going to pay those kind of bucks for a dog whose parents I couldn't eyeball. I did pay a lot for him, but here in Santa Fe by the time you are "screened" by the shelter and if you are lucky enough to not be "rejected", which I probably would have been for the two times my border collie was "jailed" for biting, you end up spending around $100.

But I got a smart dog, who so far has no health problems, no behavior problems and he's cute to boot! That's why "I" bought a "designer dog"! (And when I told my vet he was a mutt, he said, "Don't call this dog a mutt!" (but you know what???...he IS a mutt!) Susie:)

[skunkstripe]

Well if you're gonna say that, the least you can do is post pictures!!!

:cheers:

[ruffian]

It is still a mutt and labs and poodles have a number of the same genetic problems, many that do not crop up until at least 2 years old. I have seen many lab poodle crosses with health and temperament problems.

Many of the dogs you get from shelters aren't a cross of 2 purebred dogs they are just guessing of the cross, but a majority of the time there is several mutts in their lineage, so yes understandably they are healthy. Both of my mutts were healthy as well, but had temperament problems, though.

I bought both of my dogs from breeders, both with great guarantees. If one had died at 7 months I got a new pup, unless I did something to cause it, Ruffian is 12 years old this year and her only problem is allergies, many mutts have them too. Tonka, who is 10 years old, has seizures, about every 8-14 months, I was offered a new dog, and him too. I can go buy a mutt and I will never get a good guarantee a 1 year at best. Personally a health guarantee less than 5 years is no better than toilet paper to me, I want a breeder that will back their dogs for their lifetimes not just a year, if you can't back up your pup for that long you should not be breeding. In the 3 breeds I am interested in and Shibas i have found breeders with 5 year health guarantees, as well.

If you take the effort to research breeders and get to know them and attend dogs shows and obedience trials, or hunting trials, and you make sure you breeder is doing all the health testing for their breed, you will get a good healthy dog, because if it isn't you get a new one. There is no breeder of mutts that will or even can offer this because they have started out with poorly bred dog to begin with, because no good breeder would allow their dogs to be used for the purpose of creating mutts.


And just to let you know lab poodle cross can shed it is a crap shoot at best some will a lot, some will a little and some may not. Simplest terms about 25% will not shed, 50% will a little and 25% will a lot. This is something you cannot know for sure until the adult coat comes in. As for smart same thing some are some aren't, as with any breed, saying they are all smart is like saying all border collies can herd and all pit bulls are mean, it is plain not true, even the best breeders have to evaluate the pups to determine train ability. Well the health thing I already covered a great breeder can sell you a healthy dog, but a dog from just any breeder may or may not be healthy, the great breeder guarantees the dog is healthy until at least 5 years, by then if it is a breeding defect it should have shown up.

But he is your dog and I you love him, but don't go saying that crossbreeds are far healthier than purebreds because it just isn't true if you are getting your purebred dog from great breeder. If you are getting a dog from a BYB or a puppymill then well you get a poorly breed dog that may or may not be purebred, and probably came from parents with some sort of health problems.

[Jake2006]

Now then I'm going to throw the cat among the pidgeons - or the purebred/pedigree/muts/mongrels amongst the wolves - but - the only purebred dog is a wolf, isn't it?

We have the most enduring friendship with dogs, starting many thousands of years ago when a wolf cub took a tenative step towards and campfire and was welcomed. His descendant has occupied a unique position halfway between 'civilised' man and 'savage' nature.

Look at this -
Analysis of 654 dogs from around the world suggests that their earliest female ancestors originated from several lineages of wolves primarily in one region, says Peter Savolainen of the Royal Institute of Technology in Stockholm. The patterns of genetic diversity point to East Asia as the likeliest place for the canine Eden, Savolainen and his colleagues argue in the Nov. 22 Science

I would never argue with Science magazine. A dog is worth whatever you want to pay for it, isn't it?

This is a good discussion which can run and run ....
Waiting for Lassie's comments! LOL

[lassie]

:thumbsupsmiley:

dont baffle me with science LOL;)

[skunkstripe]

OK I will take the bait.

:teaching:
Wolves and Dogs used to be considered separate species, but in 1993 the biologists re-classified dogs as being in the same species as wolves. This explains why you consider a mix between a wolf and a dog as a hybrid. Up until 1993 you woul dhave been correct, but not anymore.


http://www.seacrestwolfpreserve.org/Meetthepups.htm
http://www.idir.net/~wolf2dog/annd2.htm

[Doodlelover]

okay but no one has ever given me one reason why a standard poodle could not serve as a service dog that truly doesn't shed.

I have not seen any good reason to create a new breed, only greed.

Many people have tried with poodles and they often failed in training....crossing a poodle to a lab has been much more successfull in producing dogs that pass and are less alergenic. Seems like a great idea to make smart dogs that doesnt make my eyes fill up. At that point, i dont care what the papers say if i cant read them!:D

[AnimalHouse]

Well... I have a Labradoodle *Which I didnt pay for, she was a rescue* And I didnt know anything of the breed or "Designer dogs" till I got her.. and now i see it everywhere.. Goldendoodle,Labradoodle,Puggle,maltipoo, Etc. Well I dunno about the others, BUT What i read on Labradoodles was that they were makeing them to help people as service dogs.. 1 For the Hypoallergenic Coats of the poodle. 2 the smarts of both breeds 3 for the retreiving abilitis of the lab and 4 because of the energy abilitys both breeds have. So they figured they would bring both together and get the best of both worlds.. BUtJust because I have one, doesnt mean I agree with the prices these breeds are going for.. YES that is not right.. BUT.. it is happening. And All the "Purebreeds" we encounter now, at one point.. were.. Yes.. Mutts. You have to be able to mix 2 different things to get a "New " purebreed. They just dont happen... I remember looking in a book some time ago.. *Prolly 8yrs or so* And I remember a section in the back that said "Upcoming New Purebreeds" Yes.. They were becoming NEW breeds.. and NOW.. I remeber one that I saw in a Dog show, it was the same one I saw in the back of the book. *Cant member the name of the breed tho*

Soo I Kinda feel it is Crazy.. Yes.. But... I guess it is just the way it goes.. *shrugs* But JMO

[AnimalHouse]

http://www.petsdoc.com/html/funpages/dogbreedshumor.html


This is a Site that shows a few the AKC has CHOOSE to add to there list of Recognizable breeds.. Soo Yes... it does happen..

[AnimalHouse]

http://www.petsdoc.com/html/funpages/dogbreedshumor.html


This is a Site that shows a few the AKC has CHOOSE to add to there list of Recognizable breeds.. Soo Yes... it does happen..


Ooo and Cannan Dog was the breed I Was thinking of earlier

[Cheetah]

Many people have tried with poodles and they often failed in training....crossing a poodle to a lab has been much more successfull in producing dogs that pass and are less alergenic. Seems like a great idea to make smart dogs that doesnt make my eyes fill up. At that point, i dont care what the papers say if i cant read them!:D

A friend of mine has service poodle. He didn't have any problems in training.

[mamakin7991]

I am also a great fan of the "mutt". When people ask me what kind of dog my shihtzu/spaniel mix is I just say "A loved one"...All of my dogs are mutts and I wouldn't trade them for anything.

[Becky]

The service dog program that started the "labradoodle" also stopped becuase, when mixing genes, it's a crap-shoot at best. There's no guarentee of anything.

That said, WHEN someone sets out to create a new breed. They don't continually shell out 1 mix dogs (i.e. pups whose parents are both purebreds). When creating a breed, you have to know what your looking for and pick pups that match that "description" best. Then you use those for breeding stock and start the whole thing over again... until you have dogs that produce what you were originally looking for EVERY time (i.e. true breeding). This involves letting dogs MATURE before you make your selection and all others are found good homes (and, arguably, spayed/neutered prior). I've yet to hear of a designer mutt breeders doing that, mainly because their actually out for the all mighty dollar. If you want a better look at how people actually created new breeds... you might google "Alaskan Klee Kai."

The "Hybrid" vigour theory doesn't stand either. Mutts regularly have hip and elbow displasia among other genetic problems. Why? Because all dogs are of the same subspecie and many, many breeds have the same conditions (for instance a shep/lab cross is just as likely to get CHD as a lab/lab or shep/shep because both breeds involved are PRONE to CHD).

[ruffian]

This is a Site that shows a few the AKC has CHOOSE to add to there list of Recognizable breeds.. Soo Yes... it does happen..

this site is a joke, read the names, none of those are recognized breeds

[dogsdot]

I hate to say it but the designer dogs of today are the dogs that we will find in the animal shelters tomorrow. People will discover that the dogs do shed, don't look as pretty as they thought they would. Still behave like puppies and need house training and still destroy things. The word Designer has an awful lot to answer for. Then as for the teacup pups. They have so many health issues. It is just too sad. :mad:

[AnimalHouse]

I dont agree with it, But Unfortuantly it happens .. Haha.. And I was reading back in posts, and people were coming up with Names of Mixed breeds.. well I came across a Schnachi..* made it up* it is a Schnauzer and Chiuaua.. LOL I was laughing so hard when I came up with that.. My neighbors have one! ;)

[Mlynn]

This amazes me. The shelter I volunteer at gets these dogs in all the time. Last weekend we got a whole littler of Pug/PinPin puppies..5 adorable babies that were 12 weeks old & look identical to "puggles" and every other pug mix dog on the planet. For 45 dollars you get a puppy with shots & neutered...they always get degigner dog drop offs....they have had everything from Lab-doodles(1 day old puppies..breeder wanted to make money...mom dog tried to kill the babies...only 4 survived...she dumped them at the shelter the day after they were born because she didn't want to be bothered...then had the gaul to ask for them back after the foster moms spent 6 weeks handfeeding them every 2 hours exc and doing all the work. They told her where she could go shove it :) to a giant schnauzer & a pure bred cavalier king charles spaniel to a devon rex cat. These animals are not rare.

[Doberman's]

Hello Mlynn and welcome to Dogforum.org. :)

Thank you for your input. :)

[mysterydog1]

lookie what i found.



WHAT IS A POO DOG ???

Date: 2006-07-03, 12:12AM EDT


Please note: I have NOTHING against crossbred dogs. I own one myself. What I am opposed to is the intentional breeding of crosses and selling them to the general public who may not be as educated to things like this for the SOLE purpose of making money. People will take two breeds, cross them and call them a new breed when in actuality, it is not. It takes a LONG time and lots of work to create a strain of dogs that breeds true to type when bred to another of that type (a purebred). Sadly, there are several registries that are given false credibility to those who want to basically scam the general public and use dogs to make a living. The most common of the crosses sold as purebred are the Poo-dogs (anything crossed with poodles).Cock-a-poos, Snoodles, Sheltipoos, Labradoodles, Maltipoos, Shihpoos, Pooshihs, Bassadoodles, Shihchons, The list goes on... What is a "Poo dog?" Simple, any dog crossed with a poodle and given a funky name they also fall under the heading "Designer Mutt." What is a designer mutt? Any crossbred dogs being sold as if it were purebred or something special.

The sole purpose is to sell puppies to the unsuspecting and undereducated buyer. It is not uncommon to find outrageous price tags in the range of $1000 - $2000 on some designer mutts. Whether the puppy is from a mill or from a person just breeding them for the heck of it, there are many sad myths and misconceptions of these dogs. Some people state they are trying to create the "ideal dog for..." However, with over 400 recognized breeds woldwide, there is pretty much a breed for every activity. One argument Designer Mutt Breeders use is that they are breeding for companion dogs. Honestly, there are hundreds of breeds, common and rare, bred solely for companionship. Is there a need to breed more crosses basically just to make money? No. A good breeder of "companion" breeds will place their pet puppies with the same care and concern for health as the pups they intend to use for show and future breeding. Fewer "show" breeders are in this for the money. They are in breeding for the love and betterment of the breed in form, function and health. A good breeder is lucky to break even with breeding and may even lose money on a litter when all is said and done.

Let's get a few things cleared up before going to the "heavy stuff."

1) These are NOT breeds. No matter what anyone says, they are CROSSES, MUTTS, MONGRELS - whatever name you decide to call them. It take many, many generations of careful breeding to develop a strain that breeds true when bred to another of its type and then more work to prove it is a pure breeding type and may be able to be recognized by a legitimate registry as a breed. Every time you add in a new dog to the mix that is not of the strain you are trying to develop, you set back that breeding program and have to work out the undesired traits brought in while trying to maintain the desired traits established.. Simply, three, four or even five generations of breeding say a Sheltiepoo to other Sheltiepoos without bringing in any other pure Shelties or Poodles will NOT create a new breed. It may take decades of dedicated breeding to even get a strain to breed true to desired type.

2) They are NOT hypoallergenic. No dog is. There are many proteins associated with a dog that we can be allergic to. Yes, some dogs that shed less may cause fewer problems in some people, but if the allergy is severe enough, ANY dog will cause a reaction.

3) They are not noshed. All dogs loose hair to some extent. Some breeds like Poodles are lower shed than others. But with lower shedding comes other grooming issues as well.

4) There is NO SUCH THING AS HYBRID VIGOR IN DOGS. Dogs are all the same species and a crossbred is at no less risk of health issues than a purebred. Many health issues are found in many breeds. Hip Dysplasia, for example, is found in just about every breed of dog - large or small. In the OFA database is a Cockapoo listed with a hip rating of FAIR. This rating is on the LOW end of the acceptable ratings. Below is the text from the OFA database in regards to what a FAIR rating is:

"Fair (Figure 3): Assigned where minor irregularities in the hip joint exist. The hip joint is wider than a good hip phenotype. This is due to the ball slightly slipping out of the socket causing a minor degree of joint incongruency. There may also be slight inward deviation of the weight-bearing surface of the socket (dorsal acetabular rim) causing the socket to appear slightly shallow (Figure 4)." (from http://www.offa.org/hipgrade.html (http://www.offa.org/hipgrade.html))



The following are random notes I threw together when I was confronted on-line by someone insisting Cock-a-poos were a breed. With the exception of the information specific to the cross, the general information holds true for any breed crossed with Poodle - it is NOT a breed no matter what anyone says! And further, the same concept holds true for ANY designer mutt.
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/t_zane/index_title.jpg (http://photobucket.com/)






this is in or around DESIGNER MUTTS

[Cheetah]

I saw an abandoned cockapoo for adoption at PetsMart the other day. >-.-<

[lassie]

i saw a litter advertised labters???????????? labradors X pointers and from show parnets at that ..........OMG whens it gonna STOP

[KCat]

I don't understand why these dogs are being bred, and there are dogs exactly like this (Lab/poodle mixes, pug/beagle mixes ect.) in shelters, but people are paying $1,000 dollars or so to get a mixed breed designer dog. Shelters have adorable mixes too, for MUCH less. My local shelter has dogs for $90.

I think there is the impression that these dogs have been bred from known AKC parents. A pure lab and a pure poodle. Vs. the questionable background of a "mutt". Anything with a poodle is going to be deemed special because of the shedding issue. But I fail to see how mixing poodle with anything guarantees low or no shedding. I imagine it's a dominant trait but there is still room for variation.

And in general, people are just not very bright when it comes to these things. I forget the stats but the number of "minis" coming into the US and being sold sick (often dying or taken away from mum far too soon) is amazing. But people keep buying them because they'll get their little jewelry dog for $200 instead of the cost of a properly bred/weaned pup.

[skunkstripe]

$200? Did you mean $2000?

[Doberman's]

The agruement that breeding to a poodle for non shedding dogs does not hold a drop of water. For example you can buy a non shedding pure bred, there are many of them out there, Water Spaniels, Shih Tzu and many more.

I still say go looking in shelter first before going to buy a cross bred dog, there are so many out there needing homes right now. :(

[KCat]

$200? Did you mean $2000?

No. $200. I'm talking about dogs being illegal imported (largely from Mexico) and sold on the streets to people who want those little pocket pooches but don't want to pay what Paris and Nicki pay. :P Apparently those prices are $200-$500 depending on the uh... gall of the seller.

[KCat]

The agruement that breeding to a poodle for non shedding dogs does not hold a drop of water. For example you can buy a non shedding pure bred, there are many of them out there, Water Spaniels, Shih Tzu and many more.

I still say go looking in shelter first before going to buy a cross bred dog, there are so many out there needing homes right now. :(

I agree - I'm just saying what people who don't know better tend to think. Or at least, I'm guessing it's part of their thinking. Aren't Water Spaniels an offshoot of Poodles? Or maybe I'm thinking of a different water dog. Non-shedding Shih Tzus? Wow. Wish I'd known about those when we had our two little toilet brushes on legs.

Friend of mine babysat a Havanese. A "Low Allergen" dog. She wasn't impressed.

I'll probably never get a pure-bred dog again. Or rather, not from a breeder. I've been converted to the rescue dog side and after countless hours of "Animal Cops" and similar shows on Animal Planet, I can't imagine not doing what I can to give a good animal a good home. Nothing against breeders or pure-bred dogs. I just can't stand to see all the sweet animals out there that need homes much more desperately than a breeder's* pups need.

*(I'm excluding puppy mills and referring solely to responsible breeders who I know take pains to properly place and care for their dogs.)

[doggiethusiast]

We got our toy poodle from the pound for next to nothing. Nowadays I think I would feel too guilty to pay such high prices for dogs when there are so many cute ones waiting for homes in the pound.

-=-=Philip=-=-
----------------------
Poodle Lover
http://www.doggybio.com/dog_breeds/poodle

[AnimalHouse]

YEs I dont understand it either.. I Have a Labradoodle, But I didnt pay a CENT for her. She was Litterally Handed to me on the street while walking my dog.

[snowmuzzle]

I find this one interesting. Pedigrees have a heavy price tag and look pretty glossy and glam, but in terms of personality, mutt and designer are pretty much identical. Yes, it's a bit of a scam to sell one to an owner expecting a pedigree, but I love mongrels, personally. I hate to think that while people are all scrambling to get the puffy little princess, 5 generations shi-tzu pedigree, a mongrel dies for want of a home.

[Jake2006]

I got Jake from Dogs Trust - we decided to get a rescue dog. I also sponsor Kenco in Darlington (bet there are a few of you reading this who also sponsor him too)

If people buy labradoodles, whatever, as non-shedding dogs they may be in for a surprise. A great percentage of 'designer dogs' do shed (according to my vet).

I saw a labradoodle in a shelter in aberdeen and I would have got him as a friend for Jake but he'd already been booked. We tried to get a poodle in rescue but there wasn't one in england, we tried toy, minature and standard -they have a long waiting list.

There are so many problems with designer dogs too - take Jake. OK he's a purebred but there is a problem with the breed due to interbreeding and its uncommon for IWS to live to 16 (which was the normal age range) - some are dying as young as 6! Now they are an endangered breed!

Who cares if a dog has a pedigree - not me!

[KatzNK9]

IJust know that there are reputable breeders out there but you must do your research, ask a lot of questions, build a repore with the breeder and get all the info you can. I am hoping there are more reputable breeders than not.

There is absolutely nothing reputable about a breeder who would even consider crossing breeds without the SPECIFIC INTENT to create a new registerable breed of dog for a specific purpose within one or more of the major canine registries.

From the start of such a breeding program, guidelines must be followed which provide specific documentation, verification, etc. Clubs of people who are interested in achieving those goals are created to support those efforts to petition the breeds for acceptance.

Anyone who cannot demonstrate that as their end goal is a fraud & is simply looking for profit regardless of how healthy their animals are &/or how sound their breeding practices appear to be. As long as people are willing to be defrauded, this practice will continue. Educating the public is the only way to make this practice cease ... and, as we all know, there's one born every day.

[MixedBreed]

Personally I couldn't justify shelling out big $$$$ for any dog, purebred, hybrid, or otherwise. Not when there are so many dogs in shelters. I understand that some people want a certain breed for their temperament (or for function - hunting & whatnot), but all dogs at the Humane Society are temperament-tested before they are put up for adoption, and very few come with any *major* baggage. Granted, I am only speaking of my own area, I see from previous posts that there are areas where unwanted dogs are few & far between, which is *awesome*. But around here...I would feel totally irresponsible buying a dog without at least looking at the Humane Society first.

Having said that, now I'm going to start referring to Cassie as a "Lapherd". People always seem surprised when I say she's a mutt ;)

[MyDogShelby]

I love my mixed breeds...you know the ones that make up the population of dogs in the shelters and adoption organizations. I've seen some of these "designer breeds" advertised in pet shops and such, and yes, there are some awfully cute ones I must say...but there's no doubt in my mind that we will always look to adopt a mixed breed rather than spend big $$$ on a designer breed...after all, aren't they the same? ;)
Pedigree breeds were developed by mixing, two or more, different dog breeds, so pedigree dogs could be considered mutts too...

I like pedigree dogs and mixed breeds...and adopting our Shelby (she's a mixed breed as well) was the best thing that could've ever happened to us...I vote Mixed Breeds, hands down :)

[travis]

A couple of months ago our family and Travis were out on a walk ,my boy is always made a fuss of as he is a rare breed,a lady came up to us and commented how gorgeous he was,and that she was getting a puppy in a few weeks,she said she was getting a cream one I explained they only come in black or liver,and she told me Labradoodles can be cream,when I explained he was a Curlycoated retriever she asked me if I was sure,she thought Labradoodles looked like Travis,this woman had ordered a pup paid a deposit was going to pay more than double what I paid for Travis and she didn't even know what her dog was going to look like,this has happened on numerous occaisions

[KCat]

There is absolutely nothing reputable about a breeder who would even consider crossing breeds without the SPECIFIC INTENT to create a new registerable breed of dog for a specific purpose within one or more of the major canine registries.


I do wonder - and I think this is being discussed elsewhere to some extent - if we will see "Labradoodles" as a specific breed someday. But what will they call them? Labradoodle is cute, but not snooty enough. :)

I love my Sharparhodylabrathingy. :)

[ritabooker]

We have never bought a dog, and unfortunately, will probably never need to. There are tons of homeless dogs in this area. We currently have our seventh adoptee(not all at the same time). Glad to see there are so many of you committed to adopting.

[ritabooker]

I love my Sharparhodylabrathingy...This is too funny.

We call Abby a "special blend". It's easy to remember and we don't know what she is made of anyway.