Wolf-Dog crosses

[Sugardog]

It's interesting what you say about feral dogs do not work or stay in a pack when there is an abundance of food. Does that mean they would come together and work as a team were their lives a constant struggle, like it is for wild wolves? Yes, I think it does. It would be a very interesting experiment, if perhaps not ethical, to form a pack of feral dogs, and abandon them somewhere where they would be safe, where they had shelter and plenty of food and water, and observe.

Yep, when food is scarce and they have to hunt, they come together and form a pack and work together to bring down prey. But when food is abundant, they go their own ways and become scavengers. It's interesting to compare that trait in feral dogs, to pet dogs (same domestic dogs, just different living situations). I sometimes wonder if that has something to do with why some dogs/packs have so much trouble getting along. Food is abundant for pet dogs, so if they stay true to their nature, they technically wouldn't be living in such a social situation with each other and living together as we have them do. Perhaps "pack dysfunction" isn't because of an absent, competent leader. Perhaps it's because we are asking them to live in an unnatural state as a pack amongst each other when food is abundant and they have no reason to be in a pack and neglecting to teach them to share and tolerate rather than submit to each other. It's an interesting thought.

I don't know how independant or close of a pack feral dogs become though, as their food supply fluctuates. If they do become almost totally independant of each other, then maybe I'm onto something.

[applesmom]

I don't really have anything to add other than I'm enjoying reading this discussion.:)

Sugardog if you've read the Coppinger book I'd recommended on the origin of dogs, you'll see that he has actually witnessed the same things you're suggesting.

Yep! You really are onto something here!:)

Great thread guys!

[Sugardog]

I'm enjoying the discussion as well! Bugle is a very interesting person to discuss a topic like this with :)

I will have to get that book now Applesmom. Anybody who can relate to and consider some of the crazy things I think up deserves credit :D

That's what happens when I get bored.

[Bugle]

Sugardog: that is fascinating. I too think you are on to something - and I too am enjoying this discussion. May I say what a pleasure it is to join a website and, albeit incognito, be able to publically declare that I kept a wolfdog for 10 years under the guise of being a Sibe/Mal cross, and not be castigated, villified and shamed - as I have been on several other chat sites here. I mustn't go off at a tangent of course, but the law in this country that any dog with more than 1% wolf content must be kept in a compound under licence is an absolute ass. ALL dogs of ANY breed are more than 1% wolf, and the GSD, the most popular dog in the world, is at least a 50% wolf cross ! Wouldn't that put the cat amongst the pigeons if all GSD owners had to keep their beautiful dogs locked up in a compound !

Anyway, I mustn't go off topic. I must try and get hold of the Coppinger book - I have never heard of him/her. Thanks for the posting Applesmom. BTW, I see you have GSP's - I used to have a gorgeous female GSP from whom I bred one litter of pups. She was a Wittekind - means nothing to me, but may to you. She was run over sadly in 1987, a mad bitch, but lovely. I'm off topic again, sorry !

If we don't speak again before tonight, Have a Great New Year's celebration and may everyone have a Happy and Peaceful 2008. But I will probably be on here again before then ... it's so interesting talking to you guys ! :cheers:
and I am going to be very :drunken: later on drowning my sorrows - I'll probably have a howl (literally !) with My Boy's ghost over his grave tonight. I get very maudlin when I'm sober, but go completely over the top when not. Our poor neighbours think I am completely barking !

[skunkstripe]

I find the topic of feral dogs extremely interesting. As a matter of fact, I started a thread on it
http://www.dogforum.org/showthread.php?t=15911
since it may well have enough substance to generate a really good discussion of its own. :)

[Sugardog]

Yes Bugle, we have a very open minded group here :)

I can't chastize you at all for owning a wolf dog. It is obvious that you have done your research and understand their nature and thus are an excellent owner for one. I personally don't think they should be bred (I think wolves should be in the wild where they belong), but since they are being bred with dogs and sold as pets, I am more than happy to hear that you are continuing to be involved with them.

Hope you have a wonderful New Year and you too Skunkstripe :)
Feral dogs seems like a good idea for a discussion. Maybe we can get this topick back to the dog whisperer and take our dog behavior conspiracies elsewhere.

[applesmom]

Thanks for the posting Applesmom. BTW, I see you have GSP's - I used to have a gorgeous female GSP from whom I bred one litter of pups. She was a Wittekind - means nothing to me, but may to you

Yes I'm familiar with the Mills de Hoogs (by reputation) and their Wittkind dogs. Quite a few of their dogs have been imported to the US and have had a lasting impact on the breed here. I've seen a number of them at National Specialty shows. Wonderful dogs!

They've also imported American dogs in the past to enhance their breeding program. One that comes immediately to mind is a daughter (CH Stradavarias Fugue) out of the prepotent American stud DC Hillhavens Hustler. The distinctive color pattern of Hustler still shows up in their dogs now and then even after several generations. I was fortunate enough to see Hustler work several times at both field trials and shows.

:DProbably much more information than you wanted to hear. I love my shorthairs! :D

[Bugle]

Not at all ! Although I am spoilt now for ever for any other type of dog except a wolfy type, I still love GSPs. Lizzie was an absolute nutter, completely hyper, but a sweetheart. Her father was Wittekind Gregory. It was very interesting learning more about the breed, thank you so much for the info Applesmom.

[Bugle]

Sugardog: thank you for not castigating me! I know many people have issues with the crossing of wolves with dogs. I personally think it is a good thing, because with the wolf genes comes intelligence, good hips (wolves do not suffer from HD), independence of spirit, hopefully lack of inbreeding and last but not least the most beautiful looks.

All my life I have had "pedigrees with health problems". I had a bloodhound with epilepsy and numerous labradors with health problems ranging from eye to bad hips and elbows. When I first learned about this wonderful lady (now sadly deceased) who had imported pure and high percentage wolves from the States and was crossing them with huskies and malamutes, I knew I was going to find the love of my life. And I did. And he wasn't my husband ... sorry Mike, but he would probably say the same of me !

And now you are quite right, we must stop hijacking this thread about the Dog Whisperer! Thank you for your lovely comments and a very happy new year to you. xx

[Sugardog]

Ok, one more comment before we stop hijacking lol.

I think that if people would breed dogs with wolves for health purposes, then that would be far more acceptable. At this point, the only reason they are being bred is so people can have a "pet wolf", which I'm sure you'd agree is unfair to the animal. If a dedicated individual with the knowledge necessary could actually take the time and breed them carefully to create a domestic animal with less health problems than the current ones, then that actually woulnd't be a bad idea.

I can't remember the country, but one person actually did something similar with coyotes. They bred them with select breeds of dogs to create an ultimate drug and explosive detecting dog. A dog who's sense of smell was greater than any current domestic dogs and who had the independance to do the job on their own so a handler wouldn't have to be constantly pointing the dog around. The dogs are property of the airport and roam about freely, finding what they were trained to find.

[Bugle]

As usual sugardog, you have grasped the point completely and wholeheartedly. Our experience over the last 10 years of the type of people in this country who have or do own wolfdogs is not good. I have listed the reasons below, with 1) being the most predominant:

1) They see breeding a "wolf" dog as a way to make money. I put the word wolf in quotes because almost always these dogs are not wolf crosses at all, but bred from huskies, mals even collies to get the wolfey look.

2) They think they know everything there is to know about raising a dog from a pup, socialisation etc. etc. They may well do with every other breed virtually, but all northern breeds such as huskies, mals, sled dogs, samoyeds, any type of "snow" dog that you like to mention, has recent wolf blood in its breeding. This does not mean that they are savage, untameable, vicious or anything else undesirable. What it does mean is that you have got to treat the dog not as your equal, you must never do that with any dog, but as a member of your pack, albeit at the bottom. You cannot go out to work all day, or even half a day, and leave any type of northern breed Home Alone, not if you don't want your house or garden destroyed, dug up, defecated upon and generally wrecked. But so many people who think they are "good with dogs" say: yeah, yeah, you are too soft, you need to be firm. I will soon get him to do what he is told. Or "I don't believe in this raw feeding, the dog will eat what I give him to eat and that is that". Most northern breeds, and particularly recent wolf crosses, absolutely must be given raw, they cannot tolerate high levels of carbs in their diet.

3) They think having a wolf cross is hard. They think that wolves are savage, wild beasts, akin to having a pitbull. They couldn't be more wrong. The wolf is a gentle creature, frightened of man, non-confrontational, but through mishandling could quite easily be turned into something very dangerous if not raised correctly. It is for this reason more than any other that I would say wolves belong in the wild and would agree with you it is a bad thing to reintroduce them to our domestic "wolves". Most dog owners simply could not handle them, or be able to roll with the punches that are the challenges of every day living with a wolf or a wolf cross. If you are capable of lateral thinking, rolling with the punches, knowing when to be firm and when to adapt, admitting that you were wrong, and being big enough to change, then you will be the perfect owner of a wolf cross. But if you like a tidy, clean home, are worried about germs, are not prepared to change or adapt or abandon even a principle or belief that you have held all of your life, then do not get a wolf cross. You must be able to think outside the box, be a lateral thinker, a right brain thinker, instinctive and be a bit of an old hippy really, like me !

4) Any pup is appealing to the hardest of heart, but a wolf cross pup, or indeed a mal or husky pup, are SO gorgeous that you would probably agree to anything in order to own this cute little bundle. People frequently do agree to anything, tick all the right boxes, and then a few months later their dog ends up in rehoming.

I had to abandon many principles that I had indoctrinated into me for 43 years of my life when I got my boy. I believed that the best place for a dog to sleep was outside in a kennel. No ! My boy had to sleep not only indoors, but in our bedroom !! I had never even allowed a dog upstairs before !

My dogs were always fed on good old cheap and cheerful commercial dog food. Dogs did not eat food fit for me to eat - wrong !! That principle had to be abandoned.

Dogs had to know their place, and that meant being Home Alone to guard whilst I went out to work - wrong !! Our boy could not be left for more than about 5 minutes without howling.

Dogs go into kennels for 2 weeks whilst I go on holiday abroad - until recently, not possible to take a dog abroad, so no foreign holidays without kennelling your dog, therefore into kennels goes dog. No, not with a wolf cross, no way, so I haven't been abroad for 10 years. A small price to pay IMO, but if this is important to you, then don't get a wolf cross.

Sorry everyone hijacking this thread - it's all Sugardog's fault for being so interesting !!!

That is so interesting what you say about coyotes. Our boy's sense of smell was absolutely phenomenal, and we always said what a brilliant sniffer dog he would make. I used to have a bloodhound as a child, but Mr Wolf's nose was much better, absolutely no doubt. He could smell a pinprick of blood from many feet away, and had amazing tracking abilities. God, I sound like one of those ghastly mothers who thinks her children are the best thing since the first coming, and is for ever bleating on and on about how wonderful her revolting and obnoxious spoilt little brats are !!:D

[Sugardog]

LOL hey look! We have our own thread now :P

Obviously a wolf dog caused some pretty big changes for you lol. I would have thought a wolf dog, like many of the northern breeds, would rather sleep outside anyway. I guess that depends on the individual. I would hate to have a dog that wanted to sleep outside....I'd be to worried about something happening to it or it being too cold. I have always been the total opposite of how you were before you got Mr. Wolf....Dogs stayed inside, on the bed and they could eat whatever I eat, the heck with smelly, cheap kibble lol.

As for training....I had the privlige to train one once that belonged to my neighbors. She was a very sweet dog, not a mean bone in her body. But she was a challenge. It took alot of work to convince her that she should work for us. Praise, pets, regular dog treats, cheese....It didn't work. The only thing that worked was small pieces of raw chicken or liver. Then the challenge was weaning her off the treats so she'd behave without being bribed. The trick to that was to keep it spontaneous.....Sometimes she'd get the treat, sometimes she wouldn't. That caused her to keep performing because she didn't know wether she was going to get it or not.

[Bugle]

Well done Sugardog, you've got it ! I wish I could have had you train my boy in the early days before I figured out how to get through to him.

You are so right with the way you handled your neighbour's wolf bitch. These dogs are a challenge with a capital C. They do not respond at all, as you found out, to the usual doggy treats like pats, treats - cheese - most ordinary dogs will bite your hand off to get a piece of cheese, not these guys. My boy would not touch dairy products in any shape or form. Pieces of cooked liver (raw was too revolting to keep in the pocket) or raw chicken were all that tripped his trigger, but even then they quickly twig what's going on, so then, as you rightly did, you would only reward occasionally so she never knew! Clever you, you are the first doggy person I have ever met who was able to rise to the challenge of training a wolfdog - I bet this bitch was a lot better behaved than Mr Wolf as well !!

I came so late to learn of CM. It was magical what my boy achieved in the short year or so that we were using calm assertive energy with him. As I have said before, it was just his recall that maintained a fairly low level, but it was still a drastic improvement. The only time it was hard to recall him was when other dogs hove into view. He just HAD to go and say hello, he could not resist it. If I was really tuned in to him, I could stop him going to say hello. On those occasions, I always rewarded him by walking him across to the other dogs, putting him on the lead if they asked me to, and letting him say hello. This was the greatest reward to him, not a piece of chicken or even liver.

Another thing with wolfdogs, it is always better to train them off leash. I know sometimes this is not possible, but they are so clever that if you train them on the lead, they will behave perfectly, but then as soon as you let them off, they go mysteriously deaf with a sudden and complete total Oral Deficit !

The best thing you can give your wolfdog even over an ordinary dog is your time, company and lots and lots of walks !

[Sugardog]

lol thanks :)

I have many tricks up my sleeve that I have accumulated over the years. I started training when I got my little Angie at age 13, I just turned 18 in November.

The best reward is giving the dog what it wants, so that's what you do. Don't be skimpy lol. If you want the behavior, give the dog a good reason (in HIS mind) to do it.

I did meet one wolfdog though, he belongs to my cousins...He is almost completely dog in the way he acts.

[Bugle]

That's interesting Sugardog about the wolfdog belonging to your cousins - is he a low percentage? Castrated? Often the low percenters can be the most difficult ! So it would be interesting to know if this "Good Guy" was low or high.

[CharlieIsTheCutest]

I love wolves. My fave animal....I want my dog to be a wolf dog!! Well he's perfect as he is :D but if I had ANOTHER dog it would be a wolf dog. Then Charlie would have a friend. Yay. Ok now this is getting verrryyy off topic.
[Hm. Its like Baldo. Half wolf, half dog.]

Okay.....well I saw a site that sells wolf-dogs, but they are soooo expensive!

[sheplovr]

:)He sent me his site and check it out on his profile, beautiful healthy dogs. Very cool...

[Sugardog]

That's interesting Sugardog about the wolfdog belonging to your cousins - is he a low percentage? Castrated? Often the low percenters can be the most difficult ! So it would be interesting to know if this "Good Guy" was low or high.

I'm not sure what his percentage is....Never bothered to ask.

But yes, he is fixed. They had it done when he was about 6 months old.

[Bugle]

Ah, I don't know from experience, but the breeder from whom we purchased our boy said that castration of a wolf cross had the effect of somehow knocking the wolfiness out of him. Certainly when we had to chemically castrate our dog, the effects of which lasted for about 2 months, he became completely malleable, far more like an ordinary dog, if there ever is such a thing !

[Bugle]

We had to pay £500 10 years ago for Mr Wolf ... which for a mongrel :winksmiley02:sure was a lot of money !!

[Sugardog]

Yes, it probably would knock the "wolfiness" out of him. It seems to me that wolves tend to be more driven by hormones than our domestic dogs', who can maintain control.

[Bugle]

Yes, I think that is absolutely right. Despite being a fan of CM, I think even he would have struggled to obtain a perfect recall with my boy if he had met another dog, or seen a dog across the fields. He just had to go and investigate ... to see whether it was fit for sex, most likely, knowing him !

[BWolf]

Well,
I read almost everything in this thread and I'd like to try to tell something (sorry for my not perfect English: i'm Italian ;)).

Talking about wolfdogs is always dangerous, talking about wolves is always dangerous. Why? Because it is really hard to find general rules good for all and it is hard for find something true even for most of them. Don't forget that you are not talking about a dog breed where you know the breed line, the caracteristic and peculiarity of any line, you KNOW (or you could) who are the parents of your puppy and so on...
So please don't mix northern "regular" breeds and "wild" wolfdogs.
From a random wolfdog you can have so many different type of animal (in terms of aspects and attitude!)
The main problem in a not fixed breed like an hybrid is that you can't know nothing about the DNA of your subject, and even if you grow him in the right way sooner or later you could be surprised in a really negative way! You know what I mean? Consider that a Wolf raised by men around the 3 years of age had always tryied to challenge his man: he has to try if his alpha is a real good alpha and if he's not he will be the alpha... i'll let you immagine the consequence...

So be carefull BEFORE talking about rules for wolfdogs ;-)

PS: I have 2 wolfdogs but they are officially dog for FCI. We have the pedegree, we know personally their parents, we study for many time the different line of the breed. Now they are grown, we dedicated them a lot of time and life and we are really happy of our pack. :) (more details and pics in my profile)

PS2: Clarifying what someone wrote before: We are not breeders, we don't sell puppies. When we'll get puppies we'll go for good owners for them. We don't want to make profit out of them. We really want just have fun living with our wolves, in the garden, in the woods, in the mountains, dogsledding and so on.... That's it. We don't care about money we could get from them: we have two other jobs that work enough well ;)

I'm sorry if I wrote too much, but I hope it helped to understand better the situation. I'm always available for discussing this extremly interesting argument!

See ya,

Stefano

[Bugle]

Hi Stefano: it is lovely to meet a fellow wolf owner, and your English is perfect!

I agree with what you say ... except for the "hybrid" word. In 1993, the Smithsonian Institute reclassified all domestic dogs, irrespective of breed, as "Canis Lupus Familiaris" as opposed to its previous classification of "Canis Familiaris", in recognition of the fact that dogs and wolves share virtually 100% DNA - I can never remember the fraction of a percent that they don't, I think it is .02. Apparently, this fractional difference is purely behavioural - the result of our "wolves" having been domesticated for what they now believe could be as long as 100,000 years. In that 100,000 years the only difference between wolves and dogs is behavioural. I find this absolutely fascinating, and made me look at ALL dogs in a completely different light. So the word "hybrid" should not be used when referring to wolfdogs, as they are not hybrids, they are wolf crosses.

You are very right I think when you say it is undesirable to cross wild wolves with tame "northern breed" dogs. I agree with you, if this is done purely as a means to making money. The breeder from whom we purchased our wolfcross, had for many years been breeding siberian huskies, alaskan malamutes and german shepherds. She had been given two pure wolves, the details of which I won't go into, because it is of course illegal to keep wolf crosses and pure wolves in this country without a Licence. She kept these two "wild" wolves as pets, on her farm, and it is from these two wolves that my beloved boy descended. She was extremely careful in her breeding lines, she bred a puppy for the person ... she knew, I suspect, that my husband I could handle an alpha male wolf cross, and that is what we got. She virtually never had dogs returned to her, because she was always so careful about 1) who she sold to and 2) who bought which puppy.

It is wonderful to meet you on here Stefano, and I am now going to look at your website, and doubtlessly fall in love ... with the wolves, not you !! I thought I had better say that in case your wife or partner reads this !!

[Tracii]

Hi Bugle and Sugardog, fantastic thread you are both a mine of information! I love wolves. Would love to share my life with one but I know I wouldn't be able to cope with one. :( You both raise some very interesting points so to does Stefano. Bugle do you have any pictures of your boy, would love to see him.
I have 2 Utonagans. They are dogs but are bred to resemble the wolf in looks only. Obviously peoples views differ with what they see.
Sorry to jump in. :)

[crim]

Here we used wolf-dog crosses as a sled-dogs.

Otherwise I don't really like wolves. They are beautiful animals, but they have also eaten several dogs this year here in Finland. And some of them are not really afraid of humans anymore. :(

[Tracii]

Yes I can see what you mean. I suppose living with wolves as your neighbours shows you a whole different side of them. Has anything been done to try and keep the wolves within their boundaries. I hope I dont sound condesending, here in the UK we have no wild wolves, so I suppose no concept of what life is like with them. Have you heard of Shaun Ellis from the UK? He has done alot of research in wolves, he had a documentary on National Geographic a few months ago. He helped a farmer can't remember if it was Finland????? Using the wolf howl to mark boundaries, early signs have shown some success.
Would love to see some pictures of you sled dogs though. Thats something I would really love to do. :D

[Bugle]

Yes please, Crim, I too would love to see piccies ... and lots of them !!

[BWolf]

Hey! While we are all waiting for some pictures from Finland I post some of my pics of me and our wolfdogs on sledding!

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/254/dsc0012tu2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/6349/dsc0023bz6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/6535/dsc0036wy3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/3084/dsc0038as4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)



http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/3161/dsc0044ul1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/5372/dsc0068lw6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/3126/dsc0090nq7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)



http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/3088/dsc0104el9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/5928/dsc0110rz3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/701/dsc0121rr0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[MoJo]

VERY NICE! *Is drop jaw!* Your dogs are so stunning!!!

[Bugle]

Ooo Grandma, what big eyes you've got !!

Aren't they just stunning !

[Tracii]

Wow Bwolf they are stunning! Very green with envy at your sled and SNOW lol
They have very similar markings to my Utonagans.
Thanks for sharing feel free to show us some more...........please