Why do german shepherd have a sloping stance?

[Melamaphine]

Ok, this has been something I have wondered for a long time. I know little about the breed but I was at a dog show the other day and I saw the GSDs in the show ring and it struck me as really unnatural.

:confused:Why are German Shepherds meant to have the odd stance with the sloping back? What advantages is it meant to hold? I was having a conversation with someone the other day about Hip Dysplasia in dogs, and how GSDs seem to suffer with is worse than other breeds. I had a friend with a GSD whose back legs went at 8 years old.

Is this because of the sloping back stance?

[Jake2006]

Interesting question - maybe Shep can help.

I have read that German Shepherd dogs, Irish Wolfhounds, Great Danes, Gordon Setters, Basset Hounds, and probably others that I cannot remember are predisposed to elbow dysplasia. With regard to hip dysplasia development which can be a partly inherited condition, usually in larger breeds (often GermanShepherd dogs, Labrador Retrievers) can occur.

I suppose it makes absolute sense when you think of the engineering work that the spine has to do.

Look forward to GSD owner's replies

[Melamaphine]

I do find it really interesting, almost all other breeds are put in the same 'show' stance to show off the physique and other breeds used for similar work as a GSD are in the classic stance. One of the GSDs was so sloped it almost looked like my collie does when she goes for a pee!

[sheplovr]

Most likely you visisted an AKC dog show or about that kind? It is NOT the back of the dog, but the croup that slopes badly and in fact, drops off to now place. Therefore making the rears very weak for do much work but show in a ring. The dogs stand almost on the entire back legs, have long straight necks in front, with larger type of face, and ears. They have established their own lines for this which I know none of nor care to, but I do not when somebody inquires to me about a puppy and what they had owned, rattleing off the lines of dog they had I know it is not a German bred dog. These AKC established dogs for showing have alot of elbow-hip displasia and inbreeding, too close on line breeding also. They are a mess!!
http://www.showgsd.org/ You can read more on the rules, etc.
http://www.dogforum.org/gallery/data/500/lg_artwork.jpgTake close notice of the confirmation of this Am. Shepherd, steep shoulder, dropped croup, etc.
Now, I breed the West Lines from Europe of show and working. They are highly strong in the rear, front, and backs. They enter the Seiger Shows full speed trotting so fast, then stacked to be judged on confirmation. deep pigment, necks tie into a nice sloped shoulder, head fits the body, croups are up and tail ties into it just at right angel to drop straight between the back legs. http://www.vom-hexenmeister.de/images/Fichtenspitze_Macho-3069.jpg.jpg
Now East lines are used more for protection, K-9 work, military etc. They are to be heavier bones, higher drive, often do not make great pets as just too nervous types. They are usually black, black sable or grey sables. They are very strong dogs and prefer work to being a pet, but many do make good pets as well as to work. I do not breed these lines as I fear the temperment as I had one flighted to me that killed my Boston. Just not stable sound nerves often in breeding them, as when the wall came down, U.S. and others were there to buy cheap, often did not get papers, inbreds, etc. It has now gotten back on track of better East lines.
http://www.raeubertochter.net/images/stories/Zuchthuendinnen/kathy_raeubertochter.jpg












I had posted a thread of just look at difference, self explantory in looking at the 3 differences. West German Dogs do possess high drive as some of mine do, but sound nerves that make great pets. all in what one wants to do with the lines. But, look at the confirmations and differences closely and you will come to realize such a big difference of:
http://www.dogforum.org/gallery/data/500/medium/GSDCOMP.jpg (http://www.dogforum.org/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/5665/size/big/cat/500/ppuser/904)

[Melamaphine]

Thanks Shep, that's really informative. I see now that it is the legs and not the back. I'm actually in the UK so it was a KC show that I saw. You say that the really low stoop is only good for showing and that it is weak, do you know how this came to be in the breed standard then?

It seems bizarre to breed a physical trait into a dog that would make it inherently weak, it seems somewhat like the english Bulldogs over-excessive breeding to get the strong forequarters and slim rear - to the point that I have heard of many who cannot whelp their own pups naturally. I can see that yours look much stronger and I think much more balanced and attractive.

I also noted with interest what you said about temperament, I didn't realise the difference with the particular strains that have the higher aggression. I've been very nervous of GSDs since I was young, most of the dogs I have come across have been hugely aggressive. Its great to hear of someone that pays real attention to both temperament and form like you appear to, maybe if more people did so then I would feel a lot better when I came face to face with one!:)

[sheplovr]

Oh honey alot of Shepherds are not agressive, just very poorly bred. I do not know how the Amercian type lines came about to just show well in the ring to win? I never was interested as I was gifted when I had horses giving lessons, training, etc. some from appreciation gave me a puppy. Always got crippled, I knew back then nothing about HD, so went to vet and they denerved them in back legs to kill the pain.

I got so sick of every Shepherd I got having this I had back of my mind to try and improve this wonderful loyal breed of dog. Hence, researched and found the West Lines more my love to breed and met Gerti my mentor. She taught me alot living her twice also. Such a difference, temperment is bred into dogs even if we do not like to admit saying all little puppies are not born mean. You know there are shy, timid ones that usually can turn out quite nastey in the wrong hands, etc.?

So, Shepherds now I import are so sweet, lovling and loyal it is sometimes nerve wracking to me under my feet, but I adore my puppies to work and prepare for new homes. I whelp each one and hourly hold them to let them feel human hands and smells. They cannot see nor hear, but the feel and smell. I am very careful to pretrain them to what the people ask for and most are for pets or work in search n rescue, bomb detecting, agility, etc.

It is what time is put into a puppy still with the litter and mom that makes them so sweet, unafraid of things, to be outgoing and not frightened of much of anything. Do not fear a Shepherd, some are bad, do not blame them, try to stoop to the dogs level and slowly reach out back of your hand for it to smell you and make a new friend......:)

[golden&hovawart]

I love GSD but most of them are overangulated,most of all in the US and England!.A lot more than in Fr!.i am use to the German working GSD and out of all the pictures, you psted,my favorites are the last 4 pictures!.

[Melamaphine]

You are right of course Shep, I am sure that not all GSDs are aggressive. I have been unfortunate in that every bad experience I have had with a dog has been with one, I was attacked by one as a child, a very beloved dog of mine was mauled by two and now I steer well clear. I grew up with huge Pyrenean Mountain Dogs (Great Pyrenees in the US I think?) without any problems and am confident with most other dogs.

I think GSDs are beautiful, and I hope one day I'll meet some that will make me feel a bit more at ease with the breed. If only you were in the UK! :)

[Jake2006]

Shep that was a really interesting read. Everything you say makes sense.

I haven't had a lot to do with GSD other than in the military - and of course they were NOT pets. Having said that I've known a dog handler leave his dog with me and it would happily go to sleep under my desk.

I heard of one English Police GSD who had had so much dental work his teeth were worth thousands! I believe he was also a mascot for the police - I'll check that out and give you the full story if I can.

It just goes to show that you learn something everyday. I thought only horses were denerved as a very last resort!

Melamarphine - why don't you make friends with the Coventry Police Dog Handling Department and ask them if you could spend some time with their GSDS? Its worth a try! Its good that we humans can often trace our fears and phobias back to real-life experiences and yet some owners don't allow their dogs the same consideration and always believe the dog is bad or aggressive.

[agilityk9trainer]

I was watching a recent conformation show on TV, ans the announcer said something like the GS low stance in the rear legs is to help it ger around herding stock better. I was appalled that they would even think such a stupid thing! Perhaps those that breed conformation have actually deluded themselves into thinking this somehow enhances a working dog? You never see GS with that bad of anglation do agility, so how on earth could they herd!!

[Aussies Rock]

I watched them at the Rose City Classic. Gawd it looks sad and painfull. How can they get around like that? That is not a herding stance.

[sheplovr]

Anybody is a right mind can see the crippling effect bred into the American show lines. It is just ignorance and stupidy to win a ribbon to do this.

I know they line breed so close it is just the same as inbreeding to me as I do not even try line breeding. Germans told me I could from 3rd generation up and I do not mess with it. I buy new lines as I am doing in June from Hungry.

It is such a pity I can barely discuss the poor dogs. They look so crippled.?

[Melamaphine]

Unfortunately a lot of the so-called 'best' breeders use blue ribbons as a measure of how good the dog is, and we are left with dogs that have these huge physical problems and highly strung nerves.

To see a dog like a GSD that has such an uncomfortable stance, a bulldog with its disproportional shape or a pekingese with a face so flat that its eyes pop out (I have come across this) is horrific. IMO it is practically torture.

As for the line-breeding, I looked through my collies pedigree and I found one dog in there three times, and another twice! While fortunately she has calmed down a bit with some socialisation and is responding well to me, she can instantly turn into a cowering wreck when confronted with something that scares her. I'm sure this is at least partly due to her breeding.

[mysterydog1]

Anybody is a right mind can see the crippling effect bred into the American show lines. It is just ignorance and stupidy to win a ribbon to do this.

I know they line breed so close it is just the same as inbreeding to me as I do not even try line breeding. Germans told me I could from 3rd generation up and I do not mess with it. I buy new lines as I am doing in June from Hungry.

It is such a pity I can barely discuss the poor dogs. They look so crippled.?
the poor dogs can't walk =(

if they go too slow when their back legs stretch out far back they twist ans almost tip over. It's very sad

[Sugardog]

Rosie seems to be almost a mix of the two.

She doesn't have the arched back of the German build, nor does she have the sharp angles in the hind legs that the Americans do.

[April]

They are breeding the same roached look in the Australian GSD's. They look so uncomfortable when walking & running.
I've heard of so many people who always had the same breed of dog for many years looking to get a different breed because of the changes in the dog's temperament etc.

[Spicy_VV]

Ok, this has been something I have wondered for a long time. I know little about the breed but I was at a dog show the other day and I saw the GSDs in the show ring and it struck me as really unnatural.

:confused:Why are German Shepherds meant to have the odd stance with the sloping back? What advantages is it meant to hold? I was having a conversation with someone the other day about Hip Dysplasia in dogs, and how GSDs seem to suffer with is worse than other breeds. I had a friend with a GSD whose back legs went at 8 years old.

Is this because of the sloping back stance?

The reason is because humans breed for extremes. They are not the worse breed as the English Bulldog holds that crown, they are the top breed for HD at least here in the US. Along with other health problems. It just goes to show what people will sacrifice for a certain look that they desire. Not just working ability or function but health as well.

I see them at shows too and I just can hardly look at them. The last show I was at there was a puppy showing which I felt so bad for, had to cringe when I saw him walk. It honestly looks like their backs were broke as little pups or something, that is how it walked.

This happens with a lot of breeds. Often the show ring version is a lot different then the working version which doesn't make sense to me. Also people breed for extremes that they like. Some breeds are "lucky" that they might have a standard that reflects working ability, but often thats not found in AKC dogs.

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii84/apbtpics/mod/badger.jpghttp://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii84/apbtpics/mod/festerside3.jpg
American Pit Bull Terrier
A medium sized athletic and agile breed, capable of hard and/or long work.

http://www.bulldogbreeds.com/breeders/pics/american_pit_bull_terrier_35085.jpghttp://www.bluebulldozer.com/Juan_Gotty.jpg
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/images19/Americanbullycorleonekennels4.jpg
American Bully (quickly become the "english bulldog" of the pit bull) You can see they are not athletic, nor agile, short, stocky too heavy, short muzzles (typically short winded) and would not be able to function correctly with their build. Many are also known for a lot of health problems. They are bred for looks. They are claimed to be an "athletic breed with an athletic build" just as the show GSD people believe that the GSD is meant to look the exaggerated way they want. It's just not true.

There are many other breeds out there like this too, the same fate as the GSD. I'm sure others might know in their breed the differences.

As for the line-breeding, I looked through my collies pedigree and I found one dog in there three times, and another twice! While fortunately she has calmed down a bit with some socialisation and is responding well to me, she can instantly turn into a cowering wreck when confronted with something that scares her. I'm sure this is at least partly due to her breeding.

Were the dogs she was bred off of shy or timid? That is a big no no, really in best interest they shouldn't be bred at all if they have an off temperament, let alone used as a foundation or line bred on because it will increase this. I have a male that is 6xs Hoover bred and I couldn't ask for a better dog really. In not only conformation but working ability, and his temperament is correct (confident, alert, sound), his obedience and willingness to learn is what I desire. I know this is because of his breeding as well. Your best bet is to stick with dogs of sound lines.

[Sugardog]

Another interesting breed pertaining to the subjects of extremes are labs.

It seems to me that show breeders are breeding for stalkiness. Why though? Why does stalkiness suddenly represent how strong and athletic a dog is? If you were to take a show/conformation labrador and compare it to a field bred labrador (dog bred to hunt in the fields), there's a HUGE difference. The field type is much thinner and leaner, much more athletic lookimg IMO. The show type labs almost look fat....I find it hard to believe that a dog like that could effeciently retrieve a shot duck. I'd expect them to sink like a brick!

I just find it extremely sad that the majority of show breeders now are breeding for the dog's appearance and nothing more. To them, a dog being flashy, or tough, or extreme in one way or another is more important than anything else. It's caused nothing but a ton of health problems and genetic issues. Too bad America doesn't do it the way the Germans do. In Germany, a German Shepherd breeder has to prove their dog's ability to herd effeciently before they can think about even SETTING FOOT into a conformation show ring.

I used to think showing would be fun, but my opinion completely changed over the last year or so. No way am I supporting that. I say screw the AKC conformation standards and breed for ability to work, not be pretty.

[Bugle]

Having just seen a GSD at Crufts this evening with what appeared to me to be the most appalling problem with the rear legs ... it looked like the dog was urinating, its back legs were so bent ... my opinion of close breeding remains the same ... it's bad!

In addition, a woman who breeds rough collies gaily told the camera that she doesn't allow her dogs TOO much exercise because she wants all the nutrition from their food to go into their coats !! What ?! Not only is this a complete load of rubbish, she is denying her beautiful dogs the joy and happiness of good long walkies every day and plenty of activity.

Grrr :mad::mad:

[April]

I'm on another pure breed dog forum & do they give anyone who talks about having mixed breed dogs a hard time. Especially all the different types of oodles.They always talk of you know what you're getting with a pure bred dog. Mixed breeds should be wiped out, etc. I've only ever owned one pure bred dog, April. All the others were mixed breeds. They all bring their own love.
The same thing has happened to the persian cat. I had a pure bred persian many years ago with a regular cat nose. Now you can't get one without a squashed in nose, I honestly don't know how they breath.

[Spicy_VV]

Having just seen a GSD at Crufts this evening with what appeared to me to be the most appalling problem with the rear legs ... it looked like the dog was urinating, its back legs were so bent ... my opinion of close breeding remains the same ... it's bad!

In addition, a woman who breeds rough collies gaily told the camera that she doesn't allow her dogs TOO much exercise because she wants all the nutrition from their food to go into their coats !! What ?! Not only is this a complete load of rubbish, she is denying her beautiful dogs the joy and happiness of good long walkies every day and plenty of activity.

Grrr :mad::mad:

I'm confused what does close breeding have to do with the dog you saw? Did you see the dogs pedigree? Breeding for a certain conformation whether hurtful and exaggerated can be obtained by loose breeding. There are many breeders who breed to the AKC standard who never do related breedings as they are against it, of course their dogs still meet the exaggerated standards to a T. I think you should be against breeding for "defects" (thats what they are IMO) instead of a specific type of breeding. Which would make more sense. No problem if you are against close breeding, but it shouldn't be because you saw a AKC standard GSD which doesn't have to do with close breeding being good or bad.

My opinion too remains the same. I'm against breeding to exaggerated standards no matter close or loose breedings. I'm for breeding healthy, functional, sound representatives of a breed whether close or loose. Each have their place in certain programs. People make the choice to breed good dogs or bad dogs no matter the type of breeding.

I'd much rather take this closely bred dog who has a sound, correct structure, health testing and certification, temperament test and CGC, and weight pull, agility and obedience titles
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii84/apbtpics/femalepit.jpg

over this loosely bred, weak rare end, "defective" dog who "looks pretty in the ring" but wouldn't last or be most healthy for work.
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii84/apbtpics/FemaleGSD.jpg

The owner of the first dog actually abandoned a loose line of dogs because of the health problems (cardiac and dysplasia) involved in that line, along with lack of quality temperament and desired drive. One particular female she had of the line had the heart problem, terrible cancer and almost total lack of drive. I think she made the right choice. It's pretty obvious which were good and which were bad in this particular case. It could be the opposite in other cases. Thats why generalizations really don't go too far.

[Bugle]

Hi Spicy VV: not a particularly clever choice of words on my part, my apologies. I much prefer your word of "loose". I have a great love for the german shepherd breed, and hate to see them virtually sitting down on their haunches like this, and tend to get carried away! Sorry !! :rolleyes:

[Spicy_VV]

No need for apology. Just looking for clarification was all.

I'm with you on the GSDs! I love many working breeds and I hate to see them bred for harmful exaggerated builds.

[Melamaphine]

Were the dogs she was bred off of shy or timid? That is a big no no, really in best interest they shouldn't be bred at all if they have an off temperament, let alone used as a foundation or line bred on because it will increase this. I have a male that is 6xs Hoover bred and I couldn't ask for a better dog really. In not only conformation but working ability, and his temperament is correct (confident, alert, sound), his obedience and willingness to learn is what I desire. I know this is because of his breeding as well. Your best bet is to stick with dogs of sound lines. __________________I do not know the temperament of the dogs that she is line bred from, I know that they were champions (which means little in terms of temperament). I didn't pick her as a pup, she was a waif that I picked up from a local kennels, nobody else would take her because of her nerves. I've worked very hard to sort her out, and we've come a long way. She's got the sweetest, most loving disposition with me now, and will let me do anything to her so I'm not overly concerned about an inherent temperament fault - it was almost certainly lack of early training and socialisation. She'll still freak out at times, but i've only had her 6 months and I never expected her to get better overnight.

In addition, a woman who breeds rough collies gaily told the camera that she doesn't allow her dogs TOO much exercise because she wants all the nutrition from their food to go into their coats !! What ?! Not only is this a complete load of rubbish, she is denying her beautiful dogs the joy and happiness of good long walkies every day and plenty of activity.I also saw that and couldn't understand it, my collie lives for going for a good run and walk. I give her an omega 3 oil additive to keep nutrients in her coat - as far as I'm concerned this was rubbish. However, she did win Best of Breed with her dogs so maybe in show terms this is what is expected. My rough collie is a pet so I put her fitness and overall health before coat!

Show dogs are a different species, I was interested in getting one to show, but my recent experiences have made me rethink this. My dogs are primarily family pets, and their health and happiness is my number 1 priority, if compromising this is the means to make a champion then I want no part of it. I saw the GSDs at Crufts, and my heart broke a little. It's not right, there was a pup that looked practically deformed.

[Bugle]

Well, if this is what "a show dog" means ... creating a freak ... then I am very glad that I have nothing to do with the world of showing Melamaphine.

I yet again say "whatever is homo sapiens doing to his Best Friend :confused: :headscratch:

[Melamaphine]

I agree entirely, the most ironic point with many champion show dogs is that they are not bred to meet the official breed standard. GSDs are meant to show working capability, and the collies that I saw at Crufts were too small for the standard (my collie is too but she is a pet). I don't understand breeding to extremes of anything just for the so-called 'beauty'. I think temperament and soundness is of paramount importance in dogs.

Think i'll stick with learning how to train agility for now!

[Bugle]

Melamaphine, I couldn't agree more. I have always thought that dogs should be judged on their ability to perform the functions for which they were originally intended. In other words, a border collie is no good at all if he cannot successfully round up a flock of sheep, or a labrador cannot swim in icy waters to retrieve a shot bird, or a german shorthaired pointer to point. There is little point in a dog looking the part ... having so-called perfect conformation ... if it cannot perform its whole raison d'etre. :confused:

[vinya12]

I used to breed German shepherds about 11 years ago. It was a hobby and both my GSDs had striate backs and strong legs. I started showing them but was told on more than one ocation they were not show type, in stead the judge wanted a arch back and the dog to look like it was crouching. I was horrified at this breeding of so called show dogs. This is not what a true GSD should look like. I cant believe they are still bread like this and the kennel club has not put a stop to it. I gave up showing as I could not stand to see the GSD looking like this and I was proud of my striate back strong dog's. At one point I sold some of my pups to the police as they told me they could not find dogs big enough or strong enough from other breeders. I don't own the breed any more but I do make a point to say well done to anyone who has got a striate back dog. As this is the true GSD as it was meant to be from the beginning

[Wyllow_1]

Well, I was was really not appreciated on another site for criticising the extreme angulation of the type that might be considered the AKC ideal by some and also the growing number that show this crouched and almost hyena like stance in the UK .....and it's with trepidation that I stand up for my thoughts again and say how much I admire the WORKING type.

Oddly enough, if you look at the British Kennel Club site, for instance, you will see this picture of a dog that does not look sloping behind, shown as an example of the breed so why you see so many in the UK ring like this is beyond me!

Take a look here

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/163/germanshepherddog.jpg

Also, can anyone tell me please, as it seems that more and more people have had dogs with back or hip trouble since the extreme fashion in angulation took off, if you can point me in the direction of statistcal or scientific proof that this exaggerated feature of the breed IS causing joint or spinal problems?

Honestly, when you look at the trot in the ring, it is supposed to flow and the angulation is "supposed" to increase the quality of the movement ( in the eyes of some)....but this IS at the expense of other paces and of general stability and manoeverability of the dog generally.

How is a working breed supposed to work if the trait encouraged makes it less able?

Surely there should NOT be a departure between a "working dog and a show dog.....but clearly this IS with many other breeds such as spaniels and retrievers.

If anyone can support the view that the increased angulation is crippling dogs, I'd really be grateful to know.

By the way, I have a straight backed, blonde, long coated Shep of the sort so many people say is "incorrect" ~ Alf's in the avatar pic on the left. I love the way he looks and don't need to excuse his appearance!

[Bugle]

:D ;) Wyllow : I can guess which site that was ... beginning with a "C" ?

[Dusty]

I have a GSD called Dusty.. he is the 4th one I have owned over the years..and I

[Milomeister]

Another interesting breed pertaining to the subjects of extremes are labs.

It seems to me that show breeders are breeding for stalkiness. Why though? Why does stalkiness suddenly represent how strong and athletic a dog is? If you were to take a show/conformation labrador and compare it to a field bred labrador (dog bred to hunt in the fields), there's a HUGE difference. The field type is much thinner and leaner, much more athletic lookimg IMO. The show type labs almost look fat....I find it hard to believe that a dog like that could effeciently retrieve a shot duck. I'd expect them to sink like a brick!

I just find it extremely sad that the majority of show breeders now are breeding for the dog's appearance and nothing more. To them, a dog being flashy, or tough, or extreme in one way or another is more important than anything else. It's caused nothing but a ton of health problems and genetic issues. Too bad America doesn't do it the way the Germans do. In Germany, a German Shepherd breeder has to prove their dog's ability to herd effeciently before they can think about even SETTING FOOT into a conformation show ring.

I used to think showing would be fun, but my opinion completely changed over the last year or so. No way am I supporting that. I say screw the AKC conformation standards and breed for ability to work, not be pretty.
I have noticed this in Labs. Working labs have longer legs than the show labrador also. It is very strange.

[Milomeister]

I'm on another pure breed dog forum & do they give anyone who talks about having mixed breed dogs a hard time. Especially all the different types of oodles.They always talk of you know what you're getting with a pure bred dog. Mixed breeds should be wiped out, etc. I've only ever owned one pure bred dog, April. All the others were mixed breeds. They all bring their own love.
The same thing has happened to the persian cat. I had a pure bred persian many years ago with a regular cat nose. Now you can't get one without a squashed in nose, I honestly don't know how they breath.

I know what you mean April. My sister owned many purebred persians. She got them from different places. Some were "exotic" persians with short coats. She also had a long coated persian with a normal looking nose and some had very squashed noses which looked very sad.

She recently got herself a couple of pugs as well. She paid £1000 for a pug female she called Nancy. Nancy ended up needing both eyes removed and a huge cost in vet bills. She kept poor Nancy and got reimbursed by the breeder. She also got the breeder "closed down" because it was clear that they weren't health checking their dogs. I don't know much about breeding so I won't pretend I am an expert, however I do know that you can get hip scores from the parents and eye scores when you are buying a puppy from a reputable breeder.

[Wyllow_1]

Bugle

Hi, just to respond to that question, no it didn't....oh dear is there another place I'm likely to get chastised because I like my GSD straight backed and agile and not looking like he's permanently peeing ?!

[April]

Bugle

Hi, just to respond to that question, no it didn't....oh dear is there another place I'm likely to get chastised because I like my GSD straight backed and agile and not looking like he's permanently peeing ?!

That's a good way of putting it, I had'nt thought of it like that.:laughingsmiley:
I see them as having difficulty walking, let alone running.