GSD for sale ad

[vinya12]

Don't know if its ok to post this, but here is a photo of a GSD for sale in a local Add, should we be reporting dog,s like this to the KC or RSPCA.
http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc197/vinya12/small_Gsd-Male-Puppy-For-Sale-60-1.jpg
This dog clearly has a deformed back.
my partner made a good point. he said it's a bit like breeding disabled or deformed people in order to keep the deformety

[Borzoi mad]

Hi Vinya I can see where you are coming from, but this is only a picture. Do you know the dog's breeding and the breeders name and what it's hipscore is? cause I think without more proof you would be wasting your time reporting it to anyone
If you feel you want to do something then why npt contact the person who put in the add and tell them how you feel.

[Bigboy]

Don't know if its ok to post this, but here is a photo of a GSD for sale in a local Add, should we be reporting dog,s like this to the KC or RSPCA.
http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc197/vinya12/small_Gsd-Male-Puppy-For-Sale-60-1.jpg
This dog clearly has a deformed back.
my partner made a good point. he said it's a bit like breeding disabled or deformed people in order to keep the deformety Would you report animal cruelty! You know you would and IMO it amounts to the same thing. Are the owners of this GSD blind to this??? I would say yes it's not just up to the KC or any other organisation to report these things, but to any dog lover. Why don't you call the owner up first? We have to get involved :)

[vinya12]

this dog is being sold for £450 and this is the better of the two photos that were up, the poor dog can not stand properly. I will ask them if they bred the dog them self's and see what they say

[Howldaloom-21]

i have looked at other german shepherd pictures and they stand like to show their breeding qualities as far as i no. i compared him to other stud dogs and i see no difference

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Shepherd_Dog

[sheplovr]

That pup is NOT stood up correctly. Whomever is selling it better take stacking lessons before advertising a nice pup like that.

First notice the left rear left is toooo far under the dog. Also, it is on a slope therefore throwing off the entire body especially in a about 8 mon old puppy. I will post a normal stack photo of how the European Shepherd stack looks like and should be of working-showing lines.

The roach or banana back makes for a stronger back for working, but not the the extreme of deformity in looking at the dog. Inko has a more roached or banana back of mine than any, I can fix that by his stance. He is strong, healthy and strong backed.

When you call, ask them to stack this pup up properly as it is killing their sale like that. that is truly a bad stance. One never trains a Shepherd of European lines on blocks either. You get down on your knees and have somebody with the camera work for you. You lift the chest in front with one hand, dropping it normally straight under the shoulders, then toward the camera pull back a leg normally, not to extreme. That levels off the back, croup, etc.

American breeds cannot be stacked like this as they stand on their entire back leg to the hock. Notice how weak the croups are, dropping straight off to get more length in stride to show in the ring with them. Stiff straight neck, shoulders make for the longer stride in trotting them, but the European Shepherds showing only at Seiger, (German), shows enters the ring full blown trot that many cannot even keep up with, takes special people to exhibit this Shepherd.

American Shepherd: Notice the Huge Difference in confirmation to show and cannot work.
http://www.akc.org/images/breeds/german_shepherd_dog/lg_artwork.jpg











Typical European Shepherd, Big Difference!
http://www.dogforum.org/gallery/data/500/tronje.jpg

[vinya12]

That's exactly the point, breeders are using bad stud dogs to get this look . I use to breed GSDs and I never had a pup look like that, witch is why the south wales police asked for pups from me. They new they were strong with strait backs , more like this dog


http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc197/vinya12/GERMANSHEPHERD.jpg
The back should not arch

[vinya12]

You may be right sheplovr, it could be the way he's stacked. Here is another photo of the same pup. I still think the pups back looks deformed though
http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc197/vinya12/usegsd2.jpg

[Seraphyn]

I assume that what you mean by stacked is the way its stood. I am not a breeder and the GSD I remember ( I had a pedigree one growing up) is the one represented in Vinya's post num 7.
The pup in question his back does look very weird. But I am not a qualified eye. You need to phone and see what comes of it.

[sheplovr]

Yes stacked is the Germans way of telling you to stand it up. The pup needs yet to be stacked properly. It has more roach now as a pup and could grow out of that also.

If I knew the lines as it has good pigment, good markings of not alot of white if any? Nice dark eyes, black nose, good ears. Knowing some lines might help me know if it has a real back problem. surely the person selling this dog knows better to pose it like this if it has back roaching or not.

People cannot tell and think it is crippled when in fact the owner is not stacking it correctly, stretch it out more, but keep the back legs somewhat together more, no so far up under with the one leg.

[Jake2006]

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/136

This dog looks much different to the one advertised.

I'm no GSD breeder so I don't know what the actual 'standard' is. But if it was my dog I'd be a bit worried that it had hip and knee problems - if not now, later in life - it is almost 'stood' on its knees.

[sheplovr]

You see this is why on my site I have normal photos up of my dogs sitting, playing not stacked as you can hide things doing this as well.?

Gino is a large male so is Inko, stacking them if they go just half inch over the limit can take it down some. It hides many things I will not even go into, so it is better to just take a normal photo of dogs than doing it this way in a puppy as it has stages of life to improve on if well bred.???

[sheplovr]

In my Av is Gino at one year old in Germany. His front feet are not directly under him, somewhat foreward. He has some roach, but stacking him does not make him look crippled. In fact in my normal photo of him now, u cannot much see the roach. He is very strong, can jump six foot wall with NO effort, neck is highly muslced from swinging big balls he plays with.

Now he is much heavier than Gerti allows and does not like him with weight on but he will be 7 Sept 2. He plays and does not work anymore, he is a pet of mine, he does not eat much either. He is a powerful male.

This is Gino at about 26 mos old, little roach, but covering NO faults. It is just plain Gino my grandaughter stacked, practining that she wanted to do.
http://www.dogforum.org/gallery/data/500/genestacks3.jpg
But, see he is standing on all 4 feet, not legs in back. Front legs could be more perfect, but she is a kid that did good. Feet could be back tad bit and together better. Neck is clean, good croup, drops off easily and naturally tail hangs normal also.

[vinya12]

sheplovr. Gino is beautiful . you can tell he is strong and fit in this photo. lovely example of how a GSD should look :)

[sheplovr]

Thank you honey. He is NOT perfect and was young, but he is loyal, loving and is a great producer, not studdy, not mean, loves attention and holds his black saddleback and nose or mask. A must in Shepherds well bred to hold the black, dark eyes also.

[Jake2006]

Thanks for posting that picture Pat. It shows how GSD's should look.

Pat (not yours) the ones in the picture and in the news - are they bred like that and if so, why? What possible benefit could they have to such a sloping stance.

http://www.dogforum.org/showthread.php?t=16908&highlight=sloping+stance

We discussed this once - Mel's thread.

[Borzoi mad]

I agree Pat your dogs are all as a GSD Should be and are a credit to you.

[Bigboy]

You can see something is wrong that GSD has a back like a hump back bridge. and it's not normal.

[Fede]

We discussed the problem of the sloping stance somewhere already, I'm going to pretty much copy and paste what I said back there :p

This is what I know about GSDs stance and back:

First of all, a CORRECT German Shepherd has to have a bit of a sloping back. The sloping stance of a CORRECT German Shepherd should be useful to give them an easy trot. GSDs are great trotters, if you observe a well built dog you’ll notice a great agility and fluidity in their movement. This is a characteristic they strived for through selective breeding to give them great endurance. Their built is that of a long distance runner: they are a little longer than tall (the ideal is a 11/10 ratio between length of their body and height), they show a “diagonal movement” which is the best for a trotter, and their built and the ideal angulated legs are the characteristics that made them awesome trotters.

And here I quote the FCI Standard:
“The German Shepherd Dog is a trotter. His gait exhibits diagonal movement, i.e., the hind foot and the forefoot on opposite sides move simultaneously. The limbs, therefore, must be so similarly proportioned to one another, i.e. angulated, that the action of the rear as it carries through to the middle of the body and is matched by an equally far-reaching forehand causes no essential change in the topline. Every tendency toward overangulation of the rear quarters diminishes soundness and endurance. The correct proportions of height to length and corresponding length of the leg bones results in a ground-eating gait that is low to the ground and imparts an impression of effortless progression. With his head thrust forward and a slightly raised tail, a balanced and even trotter will have a topline that falls in moderate curves from the tip of the ears over the neck and level back through the tip of the tail.”

This means that the angulation of their hindquarters should correspond roughly to the forequarter angulation, and they shouldn’t be overangulated.
Then, the thrust is generated by the rear quarters, and the slight curve of their lower back is necessary to transmit the thrust to the anterior part of their body, so the line of their back is very effective to give continuity and fluidity to their movement, and this gives them a very long pace.

They call it “the German Shepherd flying trot”. It's a trot different from the trot of a wolf, for example. You can recognize the GSD's flying trot because the dog proceeds low and his pace is very long, so he can cover more distance with a lower number of paces (this is what gives them endurance), plus he is more effective in rapid changes of directions (GSD would need this ability if he works on the sheeps, and the German standard till sees this dog as a "shepherd", even if it is not used for this anymore).

These are examples of correct movement for a GSD
West German show line:
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/8260/xeniatrotnt1.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3005/2494846148_0dd1120f57.jpg?v=0
http://www.vomhausmiller.com/images/Tim3043.jpg



To obtain this movement, their conformation should be like Pat's Gino in that picture, and also like this one:



http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/pictures/39.jpg

This is Dingo vom Haus Gero, a German Shepherd of the 80's

And this is a video of his trot, perfect "flying trot" ;)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIFpKL0qRQ0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIFpKL0qRQ0)



This is how a german shepherd should move, his great ability to trot and the great endurance come from a long pace, thanks to the angulated legs and slightly sloping back.

More angulated legs and a more sloping back cannot guarantee a trot like this and they should be avoided.

[Seraphyn]

Sheplovr your dogs are just how a GSD should look. Gino has near enough the same colouring and stance of my childhood dog Sheba. Obviously she was female. Your dogs are a credit to you and the breed in general.

The other dog in the ad just does not look right. His back and stance looks odd to me.

[Borzoi mad]

I agree Seraphyn that in the picture for the ad the dog does not look right, but I think Vinya would need more proof than a photo when reporting it to get them to take her seriously and do something about it. They could argue that it is the angle at which the photo is taken that shows the dog like that, or they could say the dog is not stacked properly. If you see what I mean .

[vinya12]

sent them an email but no reply yet. would be good if I could see photos of the mum and dad, would show how the pup will look when fully grown

[applesmom]

Don't know if its ok to post this, but here is a photo of a GSD for sale in a local Add, should we be reporting dog,s like this to the KC or RSPCA.
http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc197/vinya12/small_Gsd-Male-Puppy-For-Sale-60-1.jpg
This dog clearly has a deformed back.
my partner made a good point. he said it's a bit like breeding disabled or deformed people in order to keep the deformety

Aside from the discussion on whether this dog is deformed or not; what would be the point in reporting any dog with a suspected physical deformity to the KC, RSPCA or anyone else?

Stuff happens and sometimes members of any species are born deformed. It's not against anyone's laws or rules to own or sell a deformed animal as long as that animal isn't suffering needlessly. We've seen the chihauhua's that were born with only two legs and the rescues were touted as hero's for finding them homes. Dogs are born without eyes and still there are owners that take them and love them.

It would be a completely different situation if the owners had deliberately injured the dog's back or cut off limbs or removed eyes amd refused necessary medical attention.

To answer your original question, the RSPCA or anyone else doesn't want or need to hear about an animal with suspected deformities unless that animal is being abused or neglected.

[vinya12]

What I mean is , would reporting this dog's breeders to the KC give The KC a chance to tell the breeders not to breed dogs with backs like theses. Its one thing for a dog to be born deformed and another thing to breed deformities in to dogs . As the KC and RSPCA have stated there concerns on breeding to extreme , would it help if the general public reported breeders who were breeding and selling dogs that have been bread to exstreme?.

[applesmom]

What I mean is , would reporting this dog's breeders to the KC give The KC a chance to tell the breeders not to breed dogs with backs like theses. Its one thing for a dog to be born deformed and another thing to breed deformities in to dogs . As the KC and RSPCA have stated there concerns on breeding to extreme , would it help if the general public reported breeders who were breeding and selling dogs that have been bread to exstreme?.

No IMO it wouldn't help in the least. The KC doesn't have the power, money or manpower to police breeders. The only way change is going to come about is for the breeders to accept full responsibility among themselves and for the pet buying public to educate themselves before they make a purchase.

If the number of available of homes drops, the breeders will be forced to take a long hard look at their breeding programs.

[Bigboy]

Aside from the discussion on whether this dog is deformed or not; what would be the point in reporting any dog with a suspected physical deformity to the KC, RSPCA or anyone else?

Stuff happens and sometimes members of any species are born deformed. It's not against anyone's laws or rules to own or sell a deformed animal as long as that animal isn't suffering needlessly. We've seen the chihauhua's that were born with only two legs and the rescues were touted as hero's for finding them homes. Dogs are born without eyes and still there are owners that take them and love them.

It would be a completely different situation if the owners had deliberately injured the dog's back or cut off limbs or removed eyes amd refused necessary medical attention.

To answer your original question, the RSPCA or anyone else doesn't want or need to hear about an animal with suspected deformities unless that animal is being abused or neglected. Or bred from! Sorry I disagree and feel that the RSPCA etc would welcome this.

[applesmom]

Or bred from! Sorry I disagree and feel that the RSPCA etc would welcome this.

Well then, we'll just have to agree to strongly disagree. They have absolutely no say so regarding private ownership of dogs as long as the dog is provided with proper food, water, shelter and medical care. Or possibly regarding licensing, leash laws or the number of pets that can be kept on a property.

The individuals that head these organizations and their employees are usually not required to know anything about genetics or the breeding of dogs. They aren't likely to possess enough knowledge to distinguish a well bred dog from a poorly bred dog.

If, as so many have suggested, the government or humane organizations are ever allowed to become involved in dictating which purebred dogs can and cannot be bred, we can kiss all well bred/purebred dogs goodbye!:(

Yes there are some truly horrible and ignorant breeders. But as long as there are good breeders who are allowed to freely use their vast scope of knowledge as they see fit, the breeds will survive. Take that freedom away from those breeders and it will be a disaster for every breed in existence!

Keep the know nothing's out of it; leave the fixing to the breed clubs and the dedicated breeders and it will get done. They're all working hard at it and have been for quite some time. Rome wasn't built in a day!

[sheplovr]

Personally I feel alot is being made a mountain out of a molehill. This young dog I still feel is stacked improperly not adding anything good to the photo. They are obviously amateurs to place such a photo of a dog for sale like this stack.?

He is off on the front legs due to them, back legs are wider and left leg is too far under, thus throwing the back up higher than if he were standing normally. On a slop sure does not help. You have to understand the working lines if he is from these, I said to ask the lines of this dog, I could help more by seeing them. Working lines the roach applies a more stronger back end to trot their show gait strong and fast, so fast for a second all 4 feet are off the ground.

They are not roached like this, but I feel the photo is placing this pup wrongly so. Ask them to just let the dog stand and place a photo on him, not a stack unless they know how to do this. Policing resteries and clubs is not so easy to start complaining, they ignore it. We would not have problems if they listened.

Most breed this over roaching out of their lines if it is roached badly, I am not judging from that photo.

[applesmom]

For one thing, it's easy to see that the angle has a lot to do with it. The length of body appears far too short and out of proportion, which means he's stacked at an angle, not horizontal to the camera.

[Bigboy]

Well then, we'll just have to agree to strongly disagree. They have absolutely no say so regarding private ownership of dogs as long as the dog is provided with proper food, water, shelter and medical care. Or possibly regarding licensing, leash laws or the number of pets that can be kept on a property.

The individuals that head these organizations and their employees are usually not required to know anything about genetics or the breeding of dogs. They aren't likely to possess enough knowledge to distinguish a well bred dog from a poorly bred dog.

If, as so many have suggested, the government or humane organizations are ever allowed to become involved in dictating which purebred dogs can and cannot be bred, we can kiss all well bred/purebred dogs goodbye!:(

Yes there are some truly horrible and ignorant breeders. But as long as there are good breeders who are allowed to freely use their vast scope of knowledge as they see fit, the breeds will survive. Take that freedom away from those breeders and it will be a disaster for every breed in existence!

Keep the know nothing's out of it; leave the fixing to the breed clubs and the dedicated breeders and it will get done. They're all working hard at it and have been for quite some time. Rome wasn't built in a day! So there are certain laws which we know about. why not a law on the genitics of dogs? This has nothing to do with ownership of dogs . You are right though
Rome wasn't built in a day :)

[Borzoi mad]

Well then, we'll just have to agree to strongly disagree. They have absolutely no say so regarding private ownership of dogs as long as the dog is provided with proper food, water, shelter and medical care. Or possibly regarding licensing, leash laws or the number of pets that can be kept on a property.

The individuals that head these organizations and their employees are usually not required to know anything about genetics or the breeding of dogs. They aren't likely to possess enough knowledge to distinguish a well bred dog from a poorly bred dog.

If, as so many have suggested, the government or humane organizations are ever allowed to become involved in dictating which purebred dogs can and cannot be bred, we can kiss all well bred/purebred dogs goodbye!:(

Yes there are some truly horrible and ignorant breeders. But as long as there are good breeders who are allowed to freely use their vast scope of knowledge as they see fit, the breeds will survive. Take that freedom away from those breeders and it will be a disaster for every breed in existence!

Keep the know nothing's out of it; leave the fixing to the breed clubs and the dedicated breeders and it will get done. They're all working hard at it and have been for quite some time. Rome wasn't built in a day!


I agree with you applesmom on all points you have made.

The Kennel Club and the breed clubs are working toward an improvement but as you say it won't happen overnight.
Sorry Dave I too will have to agree to disagree with you on this one. The RSPCA will not welcome it as it is strictly speaking not a cruelty case.

[applesmom]

So there are certain laws which we know about. why not a law on the genitics of dogs? This has nothing to do with ownership of dogs . You are right though
Rome wasn't built in a day :)

You ask "Why not a law on the genetics of dogs"? What type of laws do you have in mind and who would you suggest should write them and enforce them?

[Bigboy]

You ask "Why not a law on the genetics of dogs"? What type of laws do you have in mind and who would you suggest should write them and enforce them? A law that would stop some of the bad breeders that produce damaged dogs Come must admit it could be classed as cruelty? Who would I suggest write and enforce them? The same organisations who made the other laws! I know it's not as simple as that! In a ideal/perfect world we woundn't need laws, Dogs can't speak out so us humans should make the neccessary changes like the KC is begining to do. Which is a great start :)

[applesmom]

A law that would stop some of the bad breeders that produce damaged dogs Come must admit it could be classed as cruelty? Who would I suggest write and enforce them? The same organisations who made the other laws! I know it's not as simple as that! In a ideal/perfect world we woundn't need laws, Dogs can't speak out so us humans should make the neccessary changes like the KC is begining to do. Which is a great start :)

If we're actually going to discuss this let's have some examples!:)

What organizations and what other laws are you referring to?

[Borzoi mad]

A law that would stop some of the bad breeders that produce damaged dogs Come must admit it could be classed as cruelty? Who would I suggest write and enforce them? The same organisations who made the other laws! I know it's not as simple as that! In a ideal/perfect world we woundn't need laws, Dogs can't speak out so us humans should make the neccessary changes like the KC is begining to do. Which is a great start :)

And who might these organisations you want to write and enforce and who you say made trhe other laws be???? I would really like to know who they are.