White Boxers

[JDogg]

tell me you did not breed the white boxer as that is a no no

[BratBoxers]

tell me you did not breed the white boxer as that is a no no

Yes I sure did!

The Bitch in my avatar is from her last litter and was fist in her class all 3 days at her first show and I am very proud:D

[JDogg]

not trying to be an arse but you should have never bred her i have had boxers a long time and know the statistics on white boxers. i also have a freind who breeds them any real breeder of boxers would frown on this

[Doberman's]

Your pics are wonderful. Beautiful dogs.:)

Jdogg what is wrong with breeding a white Boxer ? They are not like Albino Dobermans they are not albinos. They are very similar to white German Shepherds.

Is Cici close to her championship ?

[BratBoxers]

Ummm.......There are no real scientific evidence to prove anything so your statistics are just a biased opinion from rescues and dogs that end up at rescues tend to not be the most well bred of animals.

I don't really care what your opinion is about me or my breeding thats not what this thread was about. I happen to be a very good person and breeder/trainer.

[RagTyme Boxers]

What statistics?
Do you mean the misconceptions and myths that surround the white boxer. Deafness?

A white boxer that is deaf is deaf because it is white, it is not deaf becuase of any bed gene. They are just as good or bad as their colored counterparts. Those that still think defferent still live in the stone age. Boxers are build upon a foundation of whites. Before you start pointing fingers and such gain a basic knowledge of genetics. Also things should be based in fact not myth. I have a page put together that many have found interesting. If requested and approved by the mods I would be more than happy to post it.

So many focus on whites that they have turned a blind eye to the problems they and others are creating for the breed as a whole through there own breeding practices. The high instance and popularity of linebreeding has so limited the gene pool for boxers that problems are starting to appear. The longevity has greatly decreased and will continue to do so as long as close linebreedings are done. Renal dysplasia is becoming a big problem, although most breeders are keeping this very quiet. So before you condem someone for breeding a healthy, comformationally correct boxer that happens to be white, think about all the "reputable breeders" intentionally decreasing the life span and health of our beloved breed for nothing more than ribbons and glory.

[JDogg]

sorry cici didnt intend to offend you your dogs are very nice i am a boxer lover big time and have had many as i said i also have a buddy who has bred them for 26 years and i never said you where a bad person also did you know at one time all boxers where white

[JDogg]

http://www.cinemaboxers.com/whites.htm


http://www.boxersandbuddies.com/WhiteBoxers.htm


http://www.boxerbuddies.org/Boxer%20Info/white_boxers.htm

[BratBoxers]

Oh cinema is a great person to get info off she doesn't even health test!! LMAO. The only reason she posted that is because of me and another rep breeder planing on breeding with a white.

It just kills me when someone comes on here professing that they know all about the breed and the white boxer. Don't you think I have done my own research? I know what statistics are saying and Like I have said before there is no scientific evidence to hold water with this issue. All I know is I have bred a very healthy 3 yr old Boxer that can produce quality.

[RagTyme Boxers]

Now find me some UNBIASED information, info on those sites is based on myth, misconceptions, and plain old closed mindedness.

Their are many breeders wishing to see the white added back into the standard and alot are "reputable"ones. There was just a discussion on another list about it (boxer list). I can google too, it takes someone who truely wants the TRUTH to do some actual leg work to find it.

[Doberman's]

Please keep this thread civil. Perhaps we should post a new thread about white boxers.

[Doberman's]

Ok, this is the new thread. Lets have a good informative discussion. :)

[lassie]

ok this is a question from an outsider.

Can whites be registered with the AKC? is so can they be shown?

just being nosey;)

[ruffian]

Yes they can be regestered, but no they can not be showen.

[k8tymem8ty]

just being nosey but i totally agree that there is nothing wrong with breeding white boxers if you still believe that whole thing about if they are white they are going to get every defect then you are very stupid i know of many breeders who breed to the highest standards that breed white boxers. in my line of business you soon know what to breed and what not to breed. from katey

[lassie]

i always thought white boxers were just throw backs. Are they not then?

[Doberman's]

I believe; and Cici can tell you better :D , that White Boxers were the result of the Bulldog being used in the creation of the Boxer way back when.

[lassie]

ive just found this
White Boxer General Information

White Boxers are not caused by genetic birth defects. Just as human hair color is the product of the combined genetics of the human parents so too is the color of a Boxer's coat a product of the genetics contributed by both the father and mother. The exclusively white coat is created when both the mother and father are carriers of the gene that makes up the white coat and the offspring inherits the white coat gene from both the father and the mother. In every way the puppy is the same as all of it's siblings, with all the energy, personality, and spirit that make them boxers.

White Boxers are not albinos. Albinos completely lack pigment. This is evidenced by pink eyes, and a complete lack of color anywhere on the body. Most white boxers have some spots on their skin (which can be seen due to their short white coats) and have some markings around their nose and mouth. Some white boxers have colored markings in their coat (brown spots around an eye or on the back etc). All white boxers have pigment in their eyes, this alone rules out albinism as the cause of their whiteness.

[lassie]

We can get this in our breed if you mate two blue merles together and they are white factored.

[polarpaws]

The merle to merle breedings are dangerous, I am pretty sure, right?
Aren't they known as Lethal Whites?

[lassie]

Never heard of that terminology . but you are correct in what you say about merle to merle. I think they do do it in the USA. and i think they are shown.

[Cheetah]

No they are not. They can be registered (anything can be registered), but they'd be laughed out of the show ring lol. No reputable breeder in the US does merle to merle breeding.

[lassie]

Ive seen pictures of white rough collies with sable heads being shown in the ring !

[Doberman's]

Lethal whites are in horses not dogs as far as I know.

Lethal white horses are albino's and they die within hours of birth none will ever survive because they lack part of their hind gut.

[lassie]

poor things

[Doberman's]

It is rare Lassie and only happens with Overo Paint/Pinto horses. Overo's carry the lethal white gene. A horse can be born with just a small patch of colour and the rest white and be ok but if it is born completly white then you have a lethal white foal.

[lassie]

can they test for it?

[BratBoxers]

This first part outlines some history Part 1
The following lines of descent concentrate on those Boxers who were the primary ancestors of American Boxers.

A Boxer Club had been formed in Munich in 1895, and the founders drew up the first Boxer Standard as a guide for their future breeding.

First Boxer Club (found on ABC website)

Much of this first standard (posted below history) still remains in the Boxer standards of today. As any good dog club should, they held a dog show as soon as possible. A picture of the Boxers in that show still survives.

Boxer Bench at one of the earliest German shows
The Boxer, John Wagner pg.38
The modern Boxer began in the late-nineteenth century in Germany with Alt's Flora, a brindle bitch imported from France by George Alt of Munich. Flora was bred to a local Boxer whose name was never recorded. A fawn and white male from this litter, Lechner's Box No.48, was then bred back to his mother who produced Alt's Flora II and Alt's Schecken No.50.


Alt’s Schecken No.50
The Boxer, John Wagner pg.43

Schecken, when paired in 1895 with a white bulldog called "Dr Toneissen's Tom" in the records, became the dam of the first Boxer registered in the first stud book in 1904, Mühlbauer's Flocki.

ABC Website
Schecken's sister Flora II was bred back to her father, Box, which produced Maier's Lord, the first noted Boxer sire. Maier's Lord was mated to Maier's Flora (parentage unknown) to produce Piccolo v. Angertor, the sire of Meta v. d. Passage.

Maier’s Lord No.13
The Boxer, John Wagner, pg.44

Piccolo v. Angertor No.19
The Boxer, John Wagner, pg.49

Meta von der Passage 30
The Boxer, John Wagner, pg.48

In 1898, a repeat breeding of Schecken and "Dr. Toneissen's Tom" produced Ch. Blanka v. Angertor. Ch. Blanka v. Angertor was the mother of Meta v. d. Passage

CH. Blanka v. Angertor No. 4
The Boxer, John Wagner, pg.36

John P. Wagner stated: “Meta v. d. Passage played the most important role of the five original ancestors. Our great line of sires all trace directly back to this female. She was a substantially built, low to the ground, brindle and white parti-color, lacking in underjaw and exceedingly lippy. As a producing bitch few in any breed can match her record. She consistently whelped puppies of marvelous type and rare quality. Those of her offspring sired by Flock St. Salvator and Wotan dominate all present-day pedigrees. Combined with Wotan and Mirzl children, they made the Boxer." (Wagner, 1950, p. 47-4

The white boxer has not always carried the stigma it carries today. At one time it was sought after and coveted. In 1925 the white boxer was no longer accepted. It is believed that the reason for this was because the dogs were to be used for police work they needed to be a darker color so as not to be easily seen. As a result of rationing at that time resulted in breeders culling the undesirable whites so that the more valuable colored dogs would have plenty to eat. The culling (killing) of whites at birth became a common practice that some breeders still practice today. It is unclear why the white boxer carries the misconceptions it does today.

Boxer Standard
Between 1904 and present day the standard has been revised 10 times. For the purpose of this post we will be focusing only on the portion of the standard defining color. Changes will be defined in white.

1904
Coat and Color - The hair is short and tight to the body. The basic colors of the Boxer are yellow and striped (fawn and brindle). These were the original colors. Yellow occurs in all shades from dark brown to wheaten. With striped dogs, any shade of yellow may form the basic color. White, while not sought after as a basic color, is permissible. It is not objectionable as a mark of distinction. A black mask improves the Boxer expression of yellow and striped dogs.

1938
COLOR - The colors are fawn and brindle, fawn in various shades vary from light yellow to dark deer red. The brindle variety should have black stripes on a golden yellow or red brown background. The stripes should be clearly defined and above all must not be grey or dirty. Stripes that do not cover the whole top of the body are not desirable. White markings in fawn or brindle dogs are not to be rejected; in fact, they are often very attractive in appearance.
The black mask is absolutely required. When white stretches over the muzzle, naturally that portion of the black mask disappears. By the same token it is not possible to get black toenails with white feet. It is desirable to have an even distribution of head markings.
Disqualifications - Boxers with white or black ground color, or entirely white or black or any other color than fawn or brindle. (White markings are allowed but not exceed more than one third (1/3) of the ground color.).

1947/1951/1962/1968
No significant changes were made to the color portion of the standard.

1980
COLOR - The colors are fawn and brindle. Fawn shades vary from light tan to stag red or mahogany, the deeper colors preferred. The brindle coat in the Boxer is of two opposite types. The first of these includes those dogs having clearly defined dark stripes on a fawn background. The second type has what is best termed reverse brindling. Here the effect is of a very dark background with lighter colored fawn stripes or streaks showing through. White markings on fawn or brindle dogs are not to be rejected and are often very attractive, but must be limited to one-third of the ground color and are not desirable on the back of the torso proper. On the face, white may replace part, or all of the otherwise essential black mask. However, these white markings should be of such distribution as to enhance, and not detract from the true Boxer expression.
DISQUALIFICATIONS - Boxers with white or black ground color, or entirely white or any color other than fawn or the two types of brindle. (White markings, when present, must not exceed one-third of the ground color).

1989
COLOR - The colors are fawn and brindle. Fawn shades vary from light tan to mahogany. The brindle varies from sparse, but clearly defined black stripes on a fawn background, to such a heavy concentration of black striping that the essential fawn background barely, although clearly, shows through (which may create the appearance of "reverse brindling").
White markings should be of such distribution as to enhance the dog's appearance, but may not exceed one-third of the entire coat. They are not desirable on the flanks or on the back of the torso proper. On the face, white may replace part of the otherwise essential black mask and may extend in an upward path between the eyes, but it must not be excessive, so as to detract from the true Boxer expression.
Faults - Unattractive or misplaced white markings.

1999
Color
The colors are fawn and brindle. Fawn shades vary from light tan to mahogany. The brindle ranges from sparse but clearly defined black stripes on a fawn background, to such a heavy concentration of black striping that the essential fawn background color barely, although clearly, shows through (which may create the appearance of reverse brindling.
White markings should be of such distribution as to enhance the dog's appearance, but may not exceed one-third of the entire coat. They are not desirable on the flanks or on the back of the torso proper. On the face, white may replace part of the otherwise essential black mask, and may extend in an upward path between the eyes, but it must not be excessive, so as to detract from true Boxer expression.
Faults
Unattractive or misplaced white markings.
Disqualifications
Boxers that are any color other than fawn or brindle. Boxers with a total of white markings exceeding one-third of the entire coat.

2005
Color
The colors are fawn and brindle. Fawn shades vary from light tan to mahogany. The brindle ranges from sparse but clearly defined black stripes on a fawn background to such a heavy concentration of black striping that the essential fawn background color barely, although clearly, shows through (which may create the appearance of reverse brindling).
White markings, if present, should be of such distribution as to enhance the dog’s appearance, but may not exceed one-third of the entire coat. They are not desirable on the flanks or on the back of the torso proper. On the face, white may replace part of the otherwise essential black mask, and may extend in an upward path between the eyes, but it must not be excessive, so as to detract from true Boxer expression. The absence of white markings, the so-called “plain” fawn or brindle, is perfectly acceptable, and should not be penalized in any consideration of color. Disqualifications: Boxers that are any color other than fawn or brindle. Boxers with a total of white markings exceeding one-third of the entire coat.

We can see once white was entered as a fault it has not changed much. Except to specify where is is allowable and amount allowable. The standard has gone through many more changes unrelated to color. But that’s another discussion.

[BratBoxers]

All of this information is a lot to absorb. Many may be wondering what it has to do with breeding white boxers today. I feel it is important to have a small knowledge of where the Boxer we know today came from. It is a foundation for which to begin explaining why I believe and feel what I do. I will give everyone a chance to read through this information while I begin to prepare my next segment.
Again I ask that we all keep things civil. I also request that everyone keep an open mind and honestly read and think about what I write. If at any time this turns to arguments or bashing I will discontinue my participation, this thread is meant as an educational tool for those interested in why people breed whites when they are against the standard. It is not meant to sway anyones opinions, simply to show a different point of view. Free from misconceptions and myths.

[BratBoxers]

Here is part two of my presentation. Hope you find it informative.

Part 2

Now I will touch on some basic genetics. I will do my best to keep things as simple as possible.


I will be focusing on 2 genes primarly. S ( the gene for no white) and sw (the white spotting gene). However there are more involved in color. This discussion focuses on the white boxer so these are the genes of importance here.

The sw gene is recessive meaning both sire and dam must possess it for white puppies to be produced. A White Boxer is sw/sw however they also carry the normal fawn or brindle genes as well. A flashy boxer carries one sw gene. A plain (classic) Boxer carries the S gene.

Since the flashy boxer has become so popular, I think it is important to point something out. It does not matter whether the dog is from a BYB, a puppymill, or a top winning show dog. EVERY flashy dog carries one sw, and all whites are sw/sw. Genetics do not change based on the ethical behavior or lack thereof of a breeder.

Now with this basic knowledge we can assertain the colors of offspring with fairly accurate consistency.

White x White = 100% white puppies



Flashy x White = 50% flashy, 50% white



Flashy x Flashy = 25% plain, 50%flashy, 25% white



Flashy x Plain = 50% plain, 50% flashy




Plain x White = 100% flashy



Plain x Plain = 100% plain





As you can see their 3 out of six mating that will produce 0% white puppies. Also note that their are 2 matings that will produce the ever popular flashy without producing whites.


This is an extremely basic explination. The 100% will always show true, the other percentages may vary slightly. I have seen Flashy x Flashy produce 75% white.
A more in depth version of this can be found here.

http://home.online.no/~hennilu/English/Information/white/

The boxer drawings were computer drawn by myself so don’t laugh at them to hard. The next and final segment will be my personal thoughts on the breeding of whites. I tend to ramble and jump fromthought to thought and back again so I will be taking some time to organize my thoughts I would like to thank everyone for keeping this civil.

[BratBoxers]

Sorry I will figure out home to post these pictures but i think all can understand.

[BratBoxers]

BTW this was written by my good friend/breeder.

[Cheetah]

Ive seen pictures of white rough collies with sable heads being shown in the ring !

Those are color-headed whites. It's an entirely different thing. They are not the result of merle-to-merle breeding and don't have any more health problems than a normal sable collie would have.

[lassie]

Those are color-headed whites. It's an entirely different thing. They are not the result of merle-to-merle breeding and don't have any more health problems than a normal sable collie would have.

We don't have them in the UK;)

[lassie]

Again I ask that we all keep things civil. I also request that everyone keep an open mind and honestly read and think about what I write. If at any time this turns to arguments or bashing I will discontinue my participation, this thread is meant as an educational tool for those interested in why people breed whites when they are against the standard. It is not meant to sway anyones opinions, simply to show a different point of view. Free from misconceptions and myths.

Thanks for that . Must admit to the outsider it is alot to digest, but very interesting;)

[Cheetah]

We don't have them in the UK;)

They seem to be a rare thing even here. >^^;<

[mysterydog1]

aww i miss all the fun. this was very interesting. don't know much about boxers.

[lassie]

They seem to be a rare thing even here. >^^;<

Not sure i like them;)

[Pit Bull]

White boxers do not conform to breed confirmation.

Did you even bother to health test the dogs before you bred them?
Do you have a health guarantee?
How much experience do you have breeding boxers?

I'm not even gonna bother reading the entire thread but if you could answer these questions that would be great.

[Doberman's]

White boxers do not conform to breed confirmation.

Did you even bother to health test the dogs before you bred them?
Do you have a health guarantee?
How much experience do you have breeding boxers?

I'm not even gonna bother reading the entire thread but if you could answer these questions that would be great.


CiCi has health tested, Cici offers a health guarantee with the pups that are sold. She is experienced and knows a lot about Boxers.

Please read the entire thread for more information.

CiCi has a pup that is well on her way to being a Champion and another from the same litter with a different owner also on the way to being a champion in the AKC.

This is a very informative and well thought out thread.

[Pit Bull]

Oh alright..yeah I was just wondering..I didn't read the entire thread so that's why I asked her those questions...

[kath]

In the UK it is still frowned on to use the white boxer for breeding,but when I first owned a boxer I was told by a respected long time breeder that in the past in Germany(where the breed originated) they were used by the army and the white stood out more and therefore lost popularity, before this there had been white boxer champions

[Zippo]

I like the white ones, think they are really smart and dignified looking. One at the bottom of our road. Fantastic looking dog.

Zippo

[zoeybeau1]

i think also alot of whites are a lot better looking than our plaines our first boxer was a white she was tested for heart problems,she was clear of all inheritided defects we didnt breed her but it didnt stop me wondering why she was so beautifull compared to alot of the plain/flashy boxers you c,iv just had a litter born and a flashy x flashy and got 2 plain,5 flashy and 3 whites,we have also had reportes of more neonatal deaths in flashy,and better built whites,and solid built plains,and its also proving hard to breed the dark pigmented eyes in the flashy,so if your genetics are right why is this xx

this is intresting xx

[Ceph]

wow...lol, this is an old thread :p

I thought I would mention two things to add onto here...

1.Articles that dont have refrences need to be taken with a grain of salt...any old person can write and article...but someone who backs their information up with facts - those are the people interested in spending the time it takes to find the truth...or at least a hypothesis rather than a generalization.
2.merle on merle crosses and the Irish spotting pattern on boxers is associated with white deafness - I saw that in Scmutz's information...I saw someone mention something about merle-merle. However...I dont think the Irish spotting is what causes white boxers so that isnt too big a deal :p
3.I am assuming that white in boxers is in similiar fashion to white shepherds... there is still pigmented skin even though the fur lacks melanocytes...then yes....alot of the defects that are probably 'said' to be a part are incorrect. The most likely causes of the white coat color are e/e at the extension locus, cd/cd at the color locus, or cch/cch at the color locus.

:)

~Cate

[BoxMeIn21]

I know this thread is old, but what the heck...Here are some scientific articles backing the reason white boxers should not be bred. To put it simply, whether they are deaf or not, their offspring very likely would be whether colored or not. Furthermore, breeding a white boxer would be no less irresponsible than breeding a boxer with a genetic heart defect or hip dysplasia.

http://www.steynmere.com/DALM_DEAFNESS.html
http://www.lsu.edu/deafness/Tufts.htm
http://www.lsu.edu/deafness/VetClinNA.htm
http://www.lsu.edu/deafness/VetJDeaf2004.pdf

Happy Reading!

[Ceph]

I believe that that first article might be incorrect - I have read in articles that the same gene that causes white in german shepherds causes white in boxers (I will do a J.Heredity search on it as those are the articles I believe I found it in). If that is then the white coat has been linked to the MC1R gene and is shown to be caused at the Extension Locus...I also think it is curious that the first article was the only one that put white boxers in the same group as the other dogs such as dalmations and bull terriers leading me to believe that their coat color is again caused by a different gene.

http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/white.html < - a link to Scmutz on White coats.

I did a search on the second article and no where are boxers mentioned - additionally if I am correct and the White Boxer is the same as the WGSD than that article has nothing to do with the white in Boxers.

The third article was the same as the first and didnt even list the boxer as one of the congenital deafness issues - which it should have with two sections (one for white and one for colored) if it was that much of a prevalence.

The last article said the same thing as the previous two...it lists boxers in the huge list but not on the list of the dogs that have irish spotting as the cause of the white coat color.

If someone could provide me an article with research like the J.heredity or something along those lines that states the white coat color in boxers is linked to deafness or causes deafness in pups I might be more likely to believe it...but I have not yet seen it - or rather have not yet seen an article that is current and includes the current proven genetic mapping.

~Cate

[Ceph]

Additionally - According to Sponenburg and Ruvinsky in their chapter about the coat color and Hair Texture in the book the Genetics of the Dog -

"Some non spotted breeds that are generally dark colored produce occasional white dogs. These include the German Shepherd...and Boxer. In these breeds, a recessive gene segregates for white with skin pigment and normally colored eyes. White dogs in these breeds are controversial with some breeders, usually because the white color is assumed to be correlated with skin, eye or ear defects. A few studies have failed to demonstrate that relationship, but even so, white dogs in these breeds remain unpopular."

This not only backs up my theory that the white coat in the boxer is not caused by the white spotting allele but also that it has been shown not to be linked to defects. This book was published in 2002.

~Cate

[applesmom]

I haven't read the thread but here are the parent club comments on the white boxer.

http://americanboxerclub.org/white.html

[Mahooli]

There is something like a 10% chance of a coloured Boxer being deaf and 16% of a white, so not really that much difference. When Bruce Cattanach bred his bobtail boxers he used a white too!
Becky

[Ceph]

What their club is saying is based upon genetics which in all liklihood are untrue....again - they used the irish white spotting gene or the merle gene as a basis for that and according to my quote above that is unlikely to be the cause of the white coat....that same argument has been made for the german shepherds - which has been proven to be untrue as well.

I could be wrong about the genes - and I will have a look and double check it.

~Cate

[BratBoxers]

http://www.steynmere.com/DALM_DEAFNESS.html

Everyone I have ever asked to post proof ALWAYS pulls the steynmere trick!

16% of whites are not deaf!! Most studies are done right at the breed rescue and 98% of the time these aren't the best of breedings either. SO no where near accurate.

[BoxMeIn21]

http://www.steynmere.com/DALM_DEAFNESS.html

And, finally, there is the extreme white spotting allele (sw) found in Dalmatians and other breeds previously mentioned (Table 1) (http://www.steynmere.com/TABLES.html#table1). In these dogs, almost the entire coat is white (ignoring the pigmented spots for the moment) but pigmented patches, as previously described, can sometimes also be found. Elucidation of these pigmented/non-pigmented patterns provides an important clue for the relationship between white coat colour and deafness.

The gene responsible for the white coat in boxers is also due to the sw allele.

Brat - Perhaps I should have read the whole thread - I didn't realize that you were the one who bred their white :p. Cate mentioned getting information from more reliable sources - I thought Bruce Cattanach, a Mammalian Geneticist (sp?) was pretty good, but what information do you have, I'd be interested in reading more of what you found in your research.

[Ceph]

Again - the article that I had was posted in 2002 and since it states that it is not the white spotting allele I tend to agree with that.

Genetics is one of those lovely subjects that is rapidly evolving - so something posted as recent as 1999 can easily be disproven in a year because all it is is theory. Until genetic mapping is done it isnt fact...which is why I tend to go with the more recent article - because usually more research has been done by this time and they feel a little more certain...if you canprovide for me an article more recent than my own - then I will look into it.

What I got mine from was the genetics of the Dog - the particular chapter was written by sponenburg and Ruvinski who are two very well know geneticsts and who have both been published in heredity and genetics journals, as has Dr. Scmutz.

And even if it is caused elsewhere than the extension Locus there are other possible places for a white coat color to appear.

~Cate

[mydogs]

there are sable,blue and tri head white Collies in the USA and there shown,and one is more beautiful then the other :)

[Mahooli]

http://www.steynmere.com/DALM_DEAFNESS.html

Everyone I have ever asked to post proof ALWAYS pulls the steynmere trick!

16% of whites are not deaf!! Most studies are done right at the breed rescue and 98% of the time these aren't the best of breedings either. SO no where near accurate.

The point I was trying to make is that there is not that much difference in deafness between solid or white boxers so it makes no difference. I don't see why whites can't be used in breeding programs personally.
Becky

[RagTyme Boxers]

Since the Boxer club is adamantly opposed to any breeding of whites, even test breeding, this has not been independantly confirmed

This says it all...The parent club and its members are closed minded and IMO afraid of possibly having to admit they were wrong all these years. ANY scientific studies based soley on the boxer would not succeed without the support of the parent club.

Studies done on other breeds have little bearing on the boxer IMO. Most of what we know is based on speculation derived from info gathered on other breeds.

Here is a few links I have saved. I have also included a link to the FCI boxer standard. The standard used by the breeds country of origin. Please note the the white is only a FAULT, makes you wonder what they know that we will not accept.
http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Genetics/ColorGen.html
http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dogspots.html
http://home.online.no/~hennilu/English/Information/white/

http://members.aol.com/Usabox/FCI144.html

[BratBoxers]

The point I was trying to make is that there is not that much difference in deafness between solid or white boxers so it makes no difference. I don't see why whites can't be used in breeding programs personally.
Becky

I see that but it is less than 16% so wouldnt breeding boxers whether colored or white be a risk all together?!?

[BoxMeIn21]

Here is a few links I have saved. I have also included a link to the FCI boxer standard. The standard used by the breeds country of origin. Please note the the white is only a FAULT, makes you wonder what they know that we will not accept.
http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Genetics/ColorGen.html
http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dogspots.html
http://home.online.no/~hennilu/English/Information/white/

http://members.aol.com/Usabox/FCI144.html

Sweet! Thank you...that is interesting about the FCI. I have some reading to do - I'll be back!

[BoxMeIn21]

And even if it is caused elsewhere than the extension Locus there are other possible places for a white coat color to appear.

~Cate
Help me out here, Cate, I know this is right up your alley, so you might need to explain things to me in more-uh-laymans terms - what the heck is an extension Locus?? :)

This is how I understand whites and deafness. From what I've read (and this is from Dr. Strain and Dr. Cattanach) it is the SW - extreme white spotting gene that causes the white color. And this strong piebald expression leads to suppression of melanocytes in the iris (=> blue eyes, more likely to be deaf) and in the blood supply of the cochlea (=> deafness). Even if the dog is only deaf in one ear, it's still genetic deafness and these dogs produce increased numbers of deaf offspring.

Are you saying that because those studies were done years ago, with the last one being in 2004, that it is in fact all theory and we may not know for sure what gene is responsible for genetic deafness?

[RagTyme Boxers]

Dr. Cattanach joined in on a similar discussion on a Boxer list a few months ago. Unfortunately, I do not have the patients to go through those archives to find his post.

The basics of what he said was: Whites are deaf because they are white, a lack of pigment in the inner ear. One could breed two deaf boxers together and produce 100% hearing puppies(this is an example, not a suggestion).
It is not a deafness that is passed to the offspring, especially if the pups are colored.

[Ceph]

Help me out here, Cate, I know this is right up your alley, so you might need to explain things to me in more-uh-laymans terms - what the heck is an extension Locus?? :)

This is how I understand whites and deafness. From what I've read (and this is from Dr. Strain and Dr. Cattanach) it is the SW - extreme white spotting gene that causes the white color. And this strong piebald expression leads to suppression of melanocytes in the iris (=> blue eyes, more likely to be deaf) and in the blood supply of the cochlea (=> deafness). Even if the dog is only deaf in one ear, it's still genetic deafness and these dogs produce increased numbers of deaf offspring.

Are you saying that because those studies were done years ago, with the last one being in 2004, that it is in fact all theory and we may not know for sure what gene is responsible for genetic deafness?

I am saying that it IS in fact all theory. There is no way to positivley tell what the gene is until it has been mapped as the MC1R gene has been to the White Coat color in the GSD. Four years ago there were four possible causes of the white coat color located at three different Loci - The Color/Albino Locus, the Extension Locus and the Spotting Locus....there was also a theory including the Intensity Locus but no one really put a whole lot of basis into that one. In fact two years ago if you had asked my I would have said that in my own personal opinion and the Opinion of noted geneticists such as Willis and Little and Carver that the white coat color with black leather was caused at the Color/Albino Locus. However this theory was proven wrong Dr. Sheila Schmutz mapped the MC1R gene and through that made the unequivocal connection between that and the cause of the masking gene of the white shepherd.

You see - until it is mapped - all genetics really is is an educated guess based upon numbers and math...it isnt concrete which is why there can be so many different Hypothesis for one outcome. We have barely touched the tip of the ice berg when it comes to genetics - there is so much more to learn and be proven.

Here are the Locus's and their causes (its related specifically to the GSD but could apply to other dogs as well - it was also written before I knew that the Extension Locus was the for sure cause of the white coat color in dogs.

The Color Locus – controls pigment in the fur
C – wild type (no change, and no dilution)
cch – Chinchilla affect – partial albinism ‘washy’ coat color (dilutes tan to a yellowish cream or white)
cd – pure white coat with black skin pigment in nose, eye and pad leather.
ce – cream colored coats, extreme dilution (from chromadane)
cb – carnaz coats and blue eyes (from chromadane)
ca – true albino (interuption of tyrosene pathway) (from chromadane)
Notes on cch/cd/ca
-for ca there is still a fair amount of research being done
-in Willis’ book he states that cd is an iffy in the GSD – many believe that homozygous cch is the cause of the white coat in the GSD
-the long held belief that white is degenerative or linked to biological problems is w/o foundation (Willis, pp39)
-seriously defective hips are not a feature of or pecuiliar to whites (Willis pp39)
-on this I think he mentioned that whites have a smaller gene pool because they are homo-r, however, with careful breeding and testing they are not any more prone to hereditary disease than are any other GSD (the swiss have demonstrated this with their superior breeding of the BBS)
-whites were generally chosen against in the past because it made it difficult to herd the white sheep and to blend into the dark when guarding. However, Willis states that the White GSD could be very useful as guide dogs if trained properly and he also mentions that they have no diminished desire to herd.. I feel they would almost be more useful during SAR missions because they would be easier to see.
-whiwhite dogs are controverisial with some breeders because the white color is correlated with skin, eye and ear defects. A few studdies have failed to demonstrate that relationship, but even so, white dogs in these breeds remain unpopular (Ruvinski and Sampson, pp82)

The Extension Locus - restricts the location of the dark pigment
Em – Black or dark mask
E – dark coat but no black mask except in black dogs
e – clear tan (black usually fades…restricts pigment to red or yellow)
Notes :
-the ‘e’ is more apparent in dogs with tan coloring than in grey sables.
-according to schmutz the e-e may also be something that causes whites or creams – this is considered to be the most current possiblity and is shown on the MC1R gene….most of my white info is still on top though…and it means the same thing.
-If e-e is the cause of the white gene the long held belief that whites are the cause of albinism would be incorrect…albinism would have to be carried by all GSDs.

The Intensity Locus – dilutes tan colors
Int – dilutes tan to ditry white
intm – dilutes tan to light yellow
int – no dilution (wild type)

The S Locus – allows for white spotting
S – self colored dogs
si – Irish spotting – 10-30% white (feet, lower legs, belly, chest, tail tip, color and blaze)
sp – Piebald – 20-30%white
sw – extreme white piebald – 10% or less is pigmented
Notes :
-S is incompletley dominant w/ sp – it causes irish type spotting, (psuedo Irish)…Can produce white like beagles have
-S-sw or si-sw makes the dog sp-sp looking.
-I included this Loci because I believe it is what causes Panda spotting in the GSD…I don’t know for sure because there are no recent GSD genetics books that I could find, but it seems like a possibility…It is also in all liklihood fairly rare in the GSD to have the spotting, though clearly exhists as is demonstrated byt the Pandas

Hec - to tell you the truth I dont think we even know what genes are really responsible for HD because so much of it can show up as environmental - so what is real and what is not - until it is pinpointed to a specific gene than all it is is assumption based on data and mathematics...it is fluid and ever changing.

~Cate

[BoxMeIn21]

Great explaination, Cate - I understand this way better now. Thank you!

[BoxMeIn21]

I found some more studies done on pigment-associated congenital sensorineural deafness in dogs. I haven't read through them all, but they are quite interesting so far. For those of you with interest, please let me know what you think.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=15082557&query_hl=7&itool=pubmed_docsum)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=10803651 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?itool=abstractplus&db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=10803651)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_DocSum (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=10390790&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_DocSum)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=14623147 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?itool=abstractplus&db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=14623147)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=12531689&query_hl=10&itool=pubmed_docsum)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=10684693 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?itool=abstractplus&db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=10684693)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_DocSum (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=12090774&query_hl=7&itool=pubmed_DocSum)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=15727910&query_hl=22&itool=pubmed_docsum)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=12925887&query_hl=22&itool=pubmed_docsum)

[mermaid2708]

i had a beautiful white boxer and her hearing was 100%. i was wondering whether the white boxers in the usa command the same price as the plains and brindles??? over hear they can be anything as low as half the price...they are still viewed by many as the runts of a litter which is a great shame.

[BoxMeIn21]

i had a beautiful white boxer and her hearing was 100%. i was wondering whether the white boxers in the usa command the same price as the plains and brindles??? over hear they can be anything as low as half the price...they are still viewed by many as the runts of a litter which is a great shame.

They are not so much viewed as a runt here, just a color disqualification ofr the show ring. As for price, some breeders will sell them for less or even half of the pet price of their colored littermates, some sell them for the same amount. It just depends. :)