Pit Bulls and American Staffordshire Terrier

[jasonc84]

Ok so i've always wondered what is the difference between the two??? I was looking on puppyfind.com the other day and looked at both of them and couldn't seen any difference in them as puppys but are there any major differences between them?? There descripstions were the same, same size etc.

[JDogg]

they are one in the same just bred for different purposes

[skunkstripe]

The American Staffordshore Terrier is a breed recognized by the AKC. There is no such breed as a "Pit Bull". The closest breed to it is the "American Pit Bull Terrier" which is a UKC breed. The UKC was set up specifically to register the APBT because the AKC wanted nothing to do with dog fighting.

Here is a nice link describing the history
http://www.nyx.net/~mbur/apbtfaqover.html

[Monkey]

The American Staffordshore Terrier is a breed recognized by the AKC. There is no such breed as a "Pit Bull". The closest breed to it is the "American Pit Bull Terrier" which is a UKC breed. The UKC was set up specifically to register the APBT because the AKC wanted nothing to do with dog fighting.

Here is a nice link describing the history
http://www.nyx.net/~mbur/apbtfaqover.html

oho... I did not know that. thanks for sharing!

[KatzNK9]

I always hate to hear the term Pit Bull in reference to a breed (APBT aside, of course) ... people tend to link several breeds with that name & all it does is promote bully breed bashing. After they add all the "bulls" to the list, they start adding in Rotties, Dobes, and even Labs while working on BSL in uninformed communities.

[skunkstripe]

What adds to the confusion is that a dog who is AKC registered as an American Staffordshire Terrier can more or less by courtesy be registered with the UKC as an APBT. This makes it hard as heck for the AmStaffy people to claim that their breed is not the same as a "pit bull".

And it that were not confusing, there is this definition of a "pit bull" from Pit Bull Rescue Central: http://www.pbrc.net/breedinfo.html

*Pit bull is NOT a breed. It's a generic term often used to describe all dogs with similar traits and characteristics often known by the public as "pit bulls".

That should be enough to thoroughly confuse anyone.

[Monkey]

Ohh god that is BS, sorry but.. the thing is.. The APBT have a closed genetic book. They do have pedigrees etc. In sweden we have to blood typ the amstaffs now just to prove they are pure lines though.
All together it is a highly aggressive terrierbreed, no matter if it is an amstaff, or pitbull or whatevermix. People need to realize that any of these dogs WILL FIGHT if asked to. They turn on really easy and have problems to turn off. and this despite any upbringing. There show up more and more individuals that works better and better with other dogs now, some even work a whole life without ever fighting. This thanks to more showbreed than gamebreeding. still though, to own any of the mentioned above is a big responsibility. I will not let Monkey here play with ANY MALE NOR FEMALE that I dont know. Tasha will get to play with them first so I see THEIR language before Mann gets to play. Just as a precaution, I dont want any dog to be hurt cause I did not have enough check on my dog.
I say like this:
You have pedigree Amstaff
you have pedigree APBT
You have pedigree Eng Staff
then you have a bunch of terrier mixes THAT SHOULD BE HANDLED AS IF THEY WERE POTENIALLY DANGEROUS, wich they are. IN THE WRONG HANDS.
Still, a terrier o terrier mix (or any more strongheaded dogs, rottie, dober, GS etc) will with age usually get bored with other dogs (most unaltered but even some altered too due to strong hormones and genes). When they get bored they have less patience, less patience means bigger risk for a fight. Then some breeds and bloodlines have a better bitestop but a lot doesnt. So when I do not know what a dog have in him her I take BABY steps when it comes to meet other dogs this as a precaution so nothing happens. I feel more and more that FCI should be like the only organisation and then one under that for each country and the one for each breed. It is getting to messy and people get tricked...

[BratBoxers]

APBT and Amstaffs are the same breed

[PopeyeDogz]

Ok so i've always wondered what is the difference between the two??? I was looking on puppyfind.com the other day and looked at both of them and couldn't seen any difference in them as puppys but are there any major differences between them?? There descripstions were the same, same size etc.
The Only difference(if you could call it a difference) is the names that the two registries use for the one breed.
From The STCA breed study

In the early 1970's the name of Staffordshire Terrier was changed to American
Staffordshire Terrier when the American Kennel Club recognized the Staffordshire Bull Terrier
breed.
Even as late as the 1960's, the AKC Stud Books were opened to permit United Kennel Club
registered American Pit Bull Terriers to compete in AKC shows as American Staffordshire
Terriers. Some exceptional dogs were brought into the AKC registry at that time, some even
winning the STCA National Specialty and an all-breed Best in Show. Their influence is still
strong in some breeder's lines today.

The American Staffordshire Terrier has an amazing identity problem. The same dog can
still be registered with the United Kennel Club (which is no longer a fighting dog registry, but an
all breed registry similar to the American Kennel Club), and/or with the American Dog Breeder's
Association, as an American Pit Bull Terrier and if its parents were registered with the AKC, it
can also be registered by the AKC under the name of American Staffordshire Terrier.
Some of the breeders of both American Staffordshire Terriers and American Pit Bull
Terriers will tell you that they are not the same breed and that "that other registry group" is
ruining the breed. However, the only real difference between these dogs is their name and
registry, and the individual breeder's selections and goals. There was no other breed of dog
added to the bloodlines to create American Staffordshire Terriers.
This breed, under several of its names, along with the Staffordshire Bull Terrier has been
under attack by anti-dog groups and has been wrongly maligned by the media. The generic
name of "pit bull" has now become a term to denote a dog used for fighting, no matter what its
genetic background, much like saying "bird dog" or "guard dog". Most of the dogs now called
that, we would all call mixed breeds. However, there is still a BREED of dog called American Pit
Bull Terrier, and many of them trace their pedigrees back to the 1800's. Many of them are still
exactly where they have always been, working at their jobs and being faithful companions.

:cheers:

[BratBoxers]

Great Info!

[Ibizan]

BUT, the Staffordshire Bull Terrier is not the same as 'either of them'. ;)

I know some get all 3 mixed up, just wanted to throw that in there.

[jasonc84]

BUT, the Staffordshire Bull Terrier is not the same as 'either of them'. ;)

I know some get all 3 mixed up, just wanted to throw that in there.

and the staffordshire bull terrier is not banned in the UK, is that correct? they are smaller aren't they, i have some friends who are thinking about getting one.

[PopeyeDogz]

Even though the difference between APBT/AST and SBT can be visual (in modern times)and distinct, depending upon the breeders goals over the course of time, they are all of the same family.

If you compare the original AKC standard that was adopted in 1936 to register the UKC APBT as Staffordshire Terrier, you will find it remarkably similar to the standard that was adopted into the KC in England in 1935 just 9 months prior, even word for word in some instances, It is well known that the standard barers of the two breeds( Staffordshire Terrier, and Staffordshire Bull Terrier) were good friends and developed there standards in consultation with each other on different sides of the world.

At that time there was very little physical difference between the breeds, and as allways is the case, breeders develope the breeds according to there goals.

You will find that the APBT/AST actuall directly sprung from the rib so to speak from the Staffordshire Bull Terrier breed, before it was known as that breed in 1935.

I found this Picture on another Forum that i visit, and think it is a good visual referance viewing the similarity of the dogs.
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/6678/img066qt4.jpg

[Shankly]

That is quite an interesting photo above as it is hard to see todays Staffordshire Bull Terrier in that dog in my opinion. Todays dogs look a lot smaller with a slightly shorter snout and more pronounced cheek bones and smaller ears. Just goes to show how breeds change over the years.

[PopeyeDogz]

That is quite an interesting photo above as it is hard to see todays Staffordshire Bull Terrier in that dog in my opinion. Todays dogs look a lot smaller with a slightly shorter snout and more pronounced cheek bones and smaller ears. Just goes to show how breeds change over the years.
You are quite correct Shankly, it is hard to see todays typical SBT within that dog,an interesting read can be found here http://staffordtribute.info/articles/html/height.htm
relating to the height and subsequent shape change of the SBT and how the preferred type/style of SBT eventuated.

[Shankly]

You are quite correct Shankly, it is hard to see todays typical SBT within that dog,an interesting read can be found here http://staffordtribute.info/articles/html/height.htm
relating to the height and subsequent shape change of the SBT and how the preferred type/style of SBT eventuated.

It was a good read, thanks for the link. I must admit my dog stands at 16 and a half inches so is over the breed standard but to me he looks fine and I didn't ever plan on showing him so it doesn't matter as long as he is healthy.

[staffilover]

and the staffordshire bull terrier is not banned in the UK, is that correct? they are smaller aren't they, i have some friends who are thinking about getting one.

over here in the uk staffordshire bull terriers are classed as the "nanny" dog
and are recommended with children:)

love
staffilover xx

[staffilover]

zack my eldest staffie is longlegged to me that is the original staff
i dont like to see these little legged fat bodied things..looking back on the history of the breed they were taller..and yet loads of people stop me {or cross over to get away} and ask if he's a "pitbull":confused: i say yes he is but he's not an american pitbull terrier:rolleyes: ..then i usually end up having an hours long chat explaining that all bull terrier breeds are "pitbulls" then watch as a wave of relief comes over their face when i tell them he is a staffordshire bull terrier..:D
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r65/dawnib/mypictures022.jpg

zack

[Caincando1]

The American Staffordshore Terrier is a breed recognized by the AKC. There is no such breed as a "Pit Bull". The closest breed to it is the "American Pit Bull Terrier" which is a UKC breed. The UKC was set up specifically to register the APBT because the AKC wanted nothing to do with dog fighting.

Here is a nice link describing the history
http://www.nyx.net/~mbur/apbtfaqover.html

Great read, thanks for sharing that article.

[staffilover]

Description:
Known for their intelligence and loyalty American Pit Bull Terriers make excellent, loving and protective companions despite the unfair press they receive. A common question regarding the APBT is, "How is this breed different from the American Staffordshire Terrier?" In the eyes of the United Kennel Club, they are the same breed, but many disagree. Some AKC-registered American Staffordshire Terriers are dual-registered as American Pit Bull Terriers with the UKC; however, this draws criticism from many who point out that the bloodlines have been separate for too long for these to be considered the same breed. The AKC, on the other hand, does not allow a UKC-registered American Pit Bull Terrier to be registered as an American Staffordshire Terrier. To be dual-registered, the dog must first be an AKC-registered American Staffordshire Terrier and then it can be registered with the UKC as an APBT -- but not vice versa... Choose from a responsible breeder and make sure the puppy is properly socialized and handled. Solid training will produce a tranquil, good, obedient, companion dog.
info supplied by:
http://bulldogbreeds.com/

[skunkstripe]

I found a site that I think does a good job of presenting the differing views on "What is a Pit Bull?" and "Are they or are they not the same as AmStaffs?". It goes on for several pages but if you are confused as to whether or not there is a differnce this might be helpful.
http://www.workingpitbull.com/amstaffpit.htm

[xnaomix55]

really good information, never knew any of this stuff b4 i joined this site a few days ago.

gr8 site with gr8 ppl and gr8 info!!!!!!!!

[Spicy_VV]

3 main breeds which fall under the term "Pit Bull" the American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier and the Staffordshire Bull Terrier. All 3 can be considered the "same" yet distinctly different off shoots of the original Bull and Terriers.

For someone to say they are exactly the same with only a different name I’d have to question their knowledge on the breed and how much experience they have.

First review history
The ancestors of these dogs were
Bulldogs – a type of dog, not a breed, one defined by function. These dogs were used as an aid to hold bulls and also for the blood sport of bull baiting.
Terrier – again a type, terriers were bred to kill small prey animals and vermin, most often used to keep rats out of feed/grains. They were also used on large/tougher animals. Some terriers thought to be used in the creation of Pit Bulls include the English White Terrier, Black and Tan Terrier and the Blue Paul Terrier.

Bull and Terrier crosses proved to be powerful, tenacious, determined, intelligent and with agility and quickness.These dogs were used for blood sports like bull baiting, ratting competitions and pit fights. These dogs were imported into America for pit fighting. They bred a dog that was unwillingly to quit, the attribute they sought was gameness. There was variance in type, for the dogs were not equal percentages of bull and terrier nor were they bred for looks. Some such as Grand Champion Richmond bears resemblance to old type Bull Terriers.

The foundation of the APBT lies with
GR CH Richmond (8xw)
CH Pilot who was an English import, he is seen in nearly all pedigrees today, he sired several dogs that Con Feeley owned.
Colby’s Galtie who was the son of Irish imports, he can be seen in many modern day pedigrees which is true of many early Colby dogs.
The Gas House Dog (McDonald’s Grip)
The Gas House Bitch (Sweeny’s Fly)
Galvin’s Pup (10xw)
Burke’s Spring (9xw)
And many others

AKC did not want to recognize the APBT, so the UKC was started in 1898 to exclusively register the breed. The dogs although registered were kept working dogs, mainly still pit fighting dogs. UKC held matches and dogs that became UKC CH were fighting CH and not conformation CH.

In 1395 the AKC decided that it would recognized the APBT but under the name Staffordshire Terrier. In 1936 the 1st APBT was AKC reg., her name was Wheeler's Black Dinah. Lucenay’s Peter who played Petey in the Lil Rascals was also dual reg., he was a son of GR CH Tudor’s Black Jack 16xw. Colby’s Primo was AKC and said to be used for the AKC AST standard. Several other dogs were also AKC registered. In 1972 the AKC renamed them American Staffordshire Terrier.

In 1935 the Kennel Club (England) also recognized the SBT as a breed.

So began the difference in breeding, the SBT and the AST would be bred almost exclusively for conformation while the APBT would be for pit fighting/work.

Size difference
SBT 28-38lbs males and 24-34lbs females
APBT desirable weight 35-60lbs for males and 30-50lbs for females
AST is to be the largest of the 3 with sources stating males 55-70lbs & 17-19” and females 40-55lbs & 17-18”


Different builds for each. The SBT almost looks like a miniature AST in build/appearance. The APBT should be more proportionate in weight/height then the SBT and the AST. The AKC says say the AST should be proportionate in weight to height but their proportions are a bit different. They are shorter yet heavier then the APBT and usually longer in body, they seem to have more of a flat back/less roach then most APBT, they also have a more distinct typy appearance, especially in the head. Many AST have a larger head with more pronounced jaws and somewhat shorter muzzle, there are still more classic AST that have the more “terrier” type head but it is very easily recognized as AST, it lends more to the look of the original staffs vs the more modern AST. Some of those few preserving this type have also preserved some working ability within the breed although not the exact same as the APBT. The APBT can be larger/smaller then the desired weight but must still be balanced, a 25lbs dog or a 70lbs dog should always have the same balance correct balance. Many modern AST are running 60-90lbs regularly with a few who still remain in the 40-50lbs and are of classic type. There are some larger APBTs but many have a lot of AST blood and are simply from dual reg. stock.

Another difference is the temperament and drives, while there are some AST that still have a drive to work most of it has been lost as with other AKC breeds, there are but a few who wish to preserve this in their lines. APBTs tend to have a higher prey drive and be dog aggressive, while AST can have some prey drive and a few might be dog aggressive much of it has been bred out. When you consider that most AST have been bred for appearance for about 70yrs with little regard to working ability and APBTs were bred to work/fight you are going to have different temperament/drive levels. The ADBA started in 1909 but like UKC was used to register pit stock and didn’t start conformation shows until 1977, so you are talking about 30yrs of being shown. Still while the dogs were being shown they were either pit fighting dogs or working dogs, unlike AKC dogs who were show only.

Registration
The AKC is a closed registry; therefore you can only register AST with AKC registered parents. This is for ANY breed, no dog can be AKC registered unless their parents were with the exception of dogs of recognized FCI foreign registries.

The UKC will still accept the AST for register which is why many of the UKC dogs are either AST or mostly AST. Many of the dogs competing have staff type with a few exceptions. This evolution happened over time. The UKC competition is very inconsistent, you can see an AST win, an old APBT win or even an overdone or AmBully win. UKC will accept breeds of many legit registries for register.

The ADBA will also accept AST but it is less common to see them, there are a few dogs of AST blood ADBA reg. and even some AmBullies but it is not normal to see them compete and certainly not normal for them to win.

There is variation in APBTs depending on bloodlines and breeder goals. There are AST breeders who would never bred out to an APBT and there are APBT who would never ever cross their dogs with AST. There is very little point in doing this unless it is to improve show stock. Some want to do this as an experiment needlessly just to see what they can produce. There are show breeders either AST/APBT or those with the strictly show APBT which cross back into working APBT to gain whatever has been lost in the show lines. The person might want to have a dog that will work so use the working APBT to breed the drives back in. Other reasons might be overall structure and conformation; some of the show dogs have lost a lot over the years so breeders go back to working dogs for better laybacks, shoulders, forearms - front ends. The strictly show type tend to have a problems with straight shoulders. With the structure diminished in the show dogs they refresh their blood with working dogs, especially if they wish to do weight pull, agility, ect.

There are other “pit bull” off shoots such as the American Bully which is more like the English Bulldog version – lack of health, function, structure, ect, a lot of these dogs have been mixed and others have simply had their phenotype altered for a certain look/structure. Oklahoma Bulldog which are large pulling dogs, many of which people have mixed in other breeds and others which have been bred for the large size.

In the AST there are still classic AST which are leaner and more balanced, some even able to perform.

In the APBT you have the strictly show type, the show/working dogs, and the strictly working dogs. Which will vary in how they look/act too.

You have some APBTs bloodlines with AST in the pedigree that still maintain the classic type and working ability. Such as Falins or Villines.

You have some APBTs with SBT in the pedigree that do the same like Willhe Make It.

Most of the foundation of American Bully is in AST blood with very little APBT, but they do not represent the AST nor are they APBT. They are a yet another “breed apart” although some still referred to and registered as APBT they now how their own registry the ABKC.

[Spicy_VV]

Photos to help illustrate some of the visual difference.

American Staffordshire Terrier

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b122/dadogs/Staff/AKCCH1950.gif
Jolly Blueguard An AST born in 1950

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b122/dadogs/Staff/CHRuffianHerculesOfHarwyn.gif
This is his great grandson heavier in type

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b122/dadogs/Staff/whiterockjetbomber.gif
White Rock Jet Bomber born 1974

A lot of the earlier AST, like Jolly Blueguard, Our Girl Teenie and such remind me of the Black Jack dogs (of which appears in their pedigrees) but over some time they were bred away from the classis pit type and the looks of their pit dog ancestors like Black Jack, Tige and others.

Some more modern AST as time progressed.
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b122/dadogs/Staff/bluebandit.jpg
A York dog. This angle shows the length in the body as compared to height and the heaviness in frame.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b122/dadogs/Staff/Maximillion.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b122/dadogs/Staff/bluesablecocacolacowboy.jpg
The above 2 are a couple of Gaff dogs, heavy frame, shorter and slightly longer then tall.

The modern AST is typically a heavier dog then the ones of old and shorter in height, which leaves them being more bulky and less balanced then an APBT.

Some breeders have worked to maintain the classic type. Such as Hartagold Kennels did. While the dogs are still easily recognized as AST by body type they are a classic and athletic type.
http://www.hartagold.com/DoodleStand5-10-03a.jpg
18” 48lbs. Many other AST are about the same height but range from 60-90lbs.

An original York dog
http://yorkkennels.tripod.com/z-romeo.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b122/dadogs/Staff/yorkmales.jpg
Compared to Modern York

As you can see some change with time, a few hold true.

[Spicy_VV]

American Pit Bull Terrier
You can compare these older APBTs to AST from the same time and see some difference.
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b122/dadogs/APBT/chchinaman.gif
CH Chinaman (born 1977) 52lbs

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b122/dadogs/APBT/chfinleybo.jpg
CH Bo (born 1971) 50lbs

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b122/dadogs/APBT/boliorom.jpg
Bolio (born 1969) 45lbs

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b122/dadogs/APBT/CHJeepRom.jpg
CH Jeep (born 76) 45lbs

Then to the modern APBTs of which are show (and working) dogs

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b122/dadogs/APBT/boogieripped.jpg
GR CH (born 1993) 48lbs – going back to Cloue/OFRN/Bullyson

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b122/dadogs/APBT/dogs.jpg
CH female/show male (born 1999) in the 40s - going back to Clouse/OFRN/Maloney/Carver/Eli

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b122/dadogs/APBT/Unclefester3.jpg
CH male 48lbs -Sorrells

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b122/dadogs/APBT/Booyare.jpg
CH male –Yellow/Bolio/Tomstone with a touch of Jeep/Rascal

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b122/dadogs/Bloodline/NedivaCO07.jpg
female (born 2005) 38lbs going back to Clouse/OFRN/Maloney/Carver/Eli

http://www.amberlitekennels.com/ruckus-18mo.jpg
CH male (born 1999) 76lbs Although very large APBT he is supremely proportionate. Heavy in OFRN blood

[agilityk9trainer]

Thanks for the work to get all the pics. Always interesting to see pictures of breeds as they developed.

[PopeyeDogz]

Thats some nice info spicey, some additional information the APBT was registered with the AKC before 1936, actually they were registered with the AKC at the same time that the UKC was formed.

Heres a few dogs that were AKC registered before 1936 there are many more.

Name/ AKC rego #/ D.O.B./ Sire&Dam

Robinsons Paddy, 62380, 1898-11-08, Bob tailed bob /Pansy
Sandoz Flo, 206995, 1915-05-15, Bunch/Nora
Naimour, 62381, 1899-11-26, Bob tailed bob /Pansy
Jack the ripper, 107570, 1903-02-02, Tige/Daisy
Corbett´s Paddy, 158537, 1908-06-27, Pincher/Rhody
Colby´s Spry, 139152, 1907-12-01, Pincher/Fanny
Plunger, 107849, 1906-04-02, Pincher/Bess
Colby´s Tim, 136015, 1905-08-10, Tige/Mag

[esp1975]

The official "pure bred" history is interesting, but the truth is, at least in the NW USA, the term "pit bull" refers to any dog that MIGHT have any of the bull terriers somewhere in their pedigree.

Most of the dogs that were bred for fighting, are NOT pure breds of any kind. People try to breed for "better" fighting dogs and do what they can to make dogs bigger and stronger, etc.

I tell people who will understand that Smokey is a lab/pit mix. He's from a shelter, and I couldn't tell you exactly what his breeding was, but he has a brindle face and legs, a pure white chest and black back and sides. If I could paint him all black, most folks wouldn't know he wasn't a lab, but those who know what to look for could still tell the difference.

He's got larger, more powerful jaws than a lab, and when he yawns, his head basically splits in half, and my husband's forearm fits neating inside his mouth. He also has a broader chest than most labs and is very well muscled (we keep joking about turning him into a draft dog).

From what we know of his history, we are pretty certain he was bred to be a fighting dog, but didn't have the right temperment to be TRAINED into it.

I have absolutely no fear of Smokey ever hurting me, or anyone - unless they were actually attacking me, which I'm okay with. Nor do I fear any staffie or staffie mix. Every one I have ever met has been full of sweetness and love - and that includes a beautiful girl with a spiked collar, standing outside the mall with her large, black male owner, both looking all tough. When I asked if I could pet her (you should have seen the look on his face) she was all head butts and kisses.

[AnimalHouse]

I was always under the Impression the Staffy is a Bigger dog.. Pitbulls are typically a lot thinner then a staffy.. *Except for the breeders that are known for breeding BIG Pitties*

:-/

And I was under the impression that a mastiff was breed to a Pittie.. to make a Staffy.. so that is why they are bigger in size and typically.. "Bulkier" then a pittie. I have never found a Pittie NORMALLY that is as big as say My Staffy. *In bulk* CEPT A cpl Lines I know of that breed to have Bulky and Thick Pitties. *Like my old neighbors Pitt*

[Spicy_VV]

Thats some nice info spicey, some additional information the APBT was registered with the AKC before 1936, actually they were registered with the AKC at the same time that the UKC was formed.

Heres a few dogs that were AKC registered before 1936 there are many more.

Name/ AKC rego #/ D.O.B./ Sire&Dam

Robinsons Paddy, 62380, 1898-11-08, Bob tailed bob /Pansy
Sandoz Flo, 206995, 1915-05-15, Bunch/Nora
Naimour, 62381, 1899-11-26, Bob tailed bob /Pansy
Jack the ripper, 107570, 1903-02-02, Tige/Daisy
Corbett´s Paddy, 158537, 1908-06-27, Pincher/Rhody
Colby´s Spry, 139152, 1907-12-01, Pincher/Fanny
Plunger, 107849, 1906-04-02, Pincher/Bess
Colby´s Tim, 136015, 1905-08-10, Tige/Mag

I do believe that these dogs were recognized as simply Bull Terriers, many APBTs were prior to 1936. A lot of people don't realize that the APBT and the Bull Terrier are also almost one in the same. Now they are 2 very different types and yes different breeds but early on they were all the same dogs, without name no APBT, no AST, no BT, no SBT no Boston Terrier, ect. They were bull and terrier dogs is all. I've seen several APBTs that were AKC registered as Bull Terriers before 1936 and even called Bull Terrier by owners.

[Spicy_VV]

The official "pure bred" history is interesting, but the truth is, at least in the NW USA, the term "pit bull" refers to any dog that MIGHT have any of the bull terriers somewhere in their pedigree.

It is true that "pit bull" is a term used for few breeds - American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, and Staffordshire Bull Terrier. All of which are considered purebred dogs. If the dog has one of these breeds in the pedigree its a pit bull mix.

The media/general public are quick to label any dog a pit bull as they see fit. Attacks by other breeds are reported as Pit Bulls. Some BSL includes any dog which has the majority of characteristics of a pit bull breed. This is inaccurate and mislabeling dogs.

Most of the dogs that were bred for fighting, are NOT pure breds of any kind. People try to breed for "better" fighting dogs and do what they can to make dogs bigger and stronger, etc.

That statement is not true at all with registration and pedigrees they should be considered purebred. UKC started to register them with pedigrees tracing back to the beginning. Your statement goes against documented history. I can assure you that Chinaman, Bolio, Bo and his son Jeep were all purebred to the best of anyone's knowledge. They were bred to other pure dogs and actually all them have a production titled for producing at least 4 fighting CHs. I posted the weights of each, they are not big or bred to be bigger, 40-50s is not considered “big” unless one likes toy breeds.

One reason why cross breeding would not be done is because it is thought to reduce the chances of producing game offspring and take away some ability.

There is actually a larger amount of inbreeding done with some, not cross breeding. Many dogs go back to CH Dibo. Eli (heavy bred Dibo himself) is also behind many dogs.
I will use brief examples instead of listing out full pedigrees

Chinaman was Eli/Carver (his parents were considered about 50/50 crosses) Eli was a heavy bred on a son of Dibo called Blind Billy

Bo was mostly Colby and lost in 1hr 52min to Brewer's Vindicator (brother to GR CH Zebo) Vindicator was another heavy bred Dibo dog (from a son of Dibo called Snowball)

Jeep was a son of Bo and Honeybunch. Honeybunch was a daughter of Bullyson and Carver's Amber. Bullyson if a brother to Eli Jr. Carver's Amber was heavy Dibo and so is Bullyson. Jeep is Colby/Eli/Carver

Indian Bolio is 1/4 Heinzl & 3/4 Carver These Carver dogs have Dibo is in the 4th, 5th & 6th generation of Bolio’s pedigree.

Honeybunch holds record as top producing female
Jeep held the record as male until Chinaman's son Frisco out produced him but there is controversy over that.

Frisco mentioned above is 1/4 Bolio and inbred Chimanman. Chinaman is Eli/Carver and Bolio is Heinzl/Carver. Frisco is pretty heavy Carver, well really going back to Dibo all over the pedigree except for the Heinzl blood.

They were not bred to be bigger only to perform above all else. You say these dogs are not purebred in anyway but pedigrees, registry, bloodline, ect show otherwise.

Further on size the average match weight is 44lbs. That would only be up to like 2004 that’s current though. Making them larger does little. They match at the same weight usually. A 40lbs dog or a 60lbs dog will be fighting other dogs of their same size.

Many breeding larger dogs would refute your statement. They contend their 100lbs "pit bulls" are purebred saying they selectively bred for size since they are not bred for fighting they don't need to be small (don't need to be easy to handle, pick up or carry under the shoulder) Most evidence points to an outcross to other breeds for size though.

APBTs are a medium sized breed the standard weight ranges from 30-65lbs. There are larger catch weight dogs 70s and smaller dogs 20s. Most dogs bred for fighting are in the average range with a few under or oversized. Many undersized dogs are used for weight pull, oversized the same and sometimes catch work. Others are larger show bred dogs used in protection sports.

I wouldn’t argue they want to breed a better fighting dog. Even though its illegal there are plenty of people still active. Just like any other breeder they want to produce better.

There is a new trend that bigger is better with newbies and fad breeders. The dogs are bred for color/size. Very bulky, like a body builder, they are not athletic. You can look up this “breed” on dogbreedinfo.com called the American Bully. The lighter, leaner dogs would run circles around these dogs and out perform them almost every time. Especially in the ability of fighting, but legal work included. The bullies structure hinders work, so does their lack of wind and short muscle which heats up quicker.

Making them stronger isn’t exactly done through breeding. They are conditioned to be stronger and have stamina through exercise. A better conditioned dog is probably going to fair well just like in weight pull. It won't for sure win because that dog could still quit or be picked up. Same with weight pull, the dog still has to have a will to continue. Otherwise all the conditioning and strength in the world won’t help the dog.

I tell people who will understand that Smokey is a lab/pit mix. He's from a shelter, and I couldn't tell you exactly what his breeding was, but he has a brindle face and legs, a pure white chest and black back and sides. If I could paint him all black, most folks wouldn't know he wasn't a lab, but those who know what to look for could still tell the difference.

He's got larger, more powerful jaws than a lab, and when he yawns, his head basically splits in half, and my husband's forearm fits neating inside his mouth. He also has a broader chest than most labs and is very well muscled (we keep joking about turning him into a draft dog).

From what we know of his history, we are pretty certain he was bred to be a fighting dog, but didn't have the right temperment to be TRAINED into it.

I have absolutely no fear of Smokey ever hurting me, or anyone - unless they were actually attacking me, which I'm okay with. Nor do I fear any staffie or staffie mix. Every one I have ever met has been full of sweetness and love - and that includes a beautiful girl with a spiked collar, standing outside the mall with her large, black male owner, both looking all tough. When I asked if I could pet her (you should have seen the look on his face) she was all head butts and kisses.Why do you say he is a Pit/Lab mix? It is very rare for labs to be brindle/tri almost non existent. I would think he is a tri Pit, black and tan with brindle points and white to be exact. I had a male like that before. The dog is actually brindle but the black is masking it and it only shows through on the tan points. Most of the general public can’t recognize a real APBT and would mistake them for a Lab or other breed.

What do you know of his history? Did the shelter have any info? Often Pit Bulls are labeled as fighting dogs even if they were not. It peeves most of us as for whatever reason they connect this negative stereotype to all Pits.

Pit Bulls are not trained to fight. If the dog doesn’t have that will (fight drive) you are right they can’t train them, if a dog does have fight drive then it doesn’t need to be trained. So essentially it is part of their temperament/desire. If a dog like yours doesn’t have a fight drive its called a “cold” dog. By some the dog won’t be bred. By others it will be bred. Some cold dogs have produced good fighting dogs in history when bred.

Some have a misconception of fighting dogs as very aggressive and even dangerous. This is generally not the case. A fighting pit bull has little difference then any other pit bull, especially those that are rescued from abuse/neglect. They should be treated the same, as individuals. Pit Bulls are a very stable/people friendly breed (due to their fighting history) they are loving and forgiving. Typically sweet natured no matter their past history. Most fighting dogs love people. Some fighting dogs get along with other dogs/animals, they don’t feel a need to fight every dog. Some won’t tolerate other dogs but that can be true of any other APBT. Some APBTs are very aggressive - called “fight crazy” because they want to fight/attack any other animal. Often times these dogs might not be used for fighting because breeders suspect the dog is going to quit, they don’t want to fight and are trying to avoid the confrontation. I’d also say these dogs won’t make good pets either. They are such a high risk for attacking and even killing another pet or domesticated animal. Fight crazy dogs have no place in the world.

I meet people like that. It is fun to shock them when this small woman wants to pet their scary killer pit.

EDIT Thought I'd ad this other pic of Bo although fat and older
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b122/dadogs/Historic/Bo2.jpg