Help with decision on breed selection

[ellen73]

Hi Everyone,

I am new here so I hope this is the right place to post this query - it seems appropriate.

My husband and I currently have a 12-1/2 year old doberman male we have had since he was 10 weeks and a 6 year old RottX female we adopted from our local SPCA when she was about 4 mos. old. Since our dobe is getting on in years I thought now would be a good time to start researching what breed to select our next dog from. We know we don't want another dobe. We have a 3 year old daughter who is very active and loves both our dogs but is too overwhelming for them sometimes. Unfortunately this past summer our dobe snapped at our daughter when he couldn't take any more of her pestering and happened to catch her under the eye resulting in 2 stitches to the top of her cheek just under her left eye. Not the dog's fault, not the kid's fault, my fault for not being more attentive and I am thankful every day that it wasn't worse. I am not suggesting that dobermans are not good family dogs - they are - in the right family, but their high activity level no longer makes the breed an option for us.

That being said, I have been searching around for some alternative dog breeds that I think would better suit our family "personality". My criteria:
1) the breed must have a natural fondness for children
2) the breed must not be an overly active breed (ie: border collies and belgian malinois need not apply:) ) and must be a low energy/active breed in the house, but appreciate a good 1 hour walk/romp daily but not have the need to have a job to do in order to be happy
3) the breed must not require any professional grooming, a "wash and wear" breed is preferred
4) the breed must be fine with being in an outside kennel for periods throughout the day (ie 3-4 hour stretches, I work from home) and overnight in mild temperatures (spring, summer, fall), we live in British Columbia, Canada
5) I would like a guard type dog without a "hair trigger" (ie: a dog that is for the most part a watchdog unless one of us were threatened, then it would be nice for the dog to act).
6) it would be nice if the dog didn't have too dominant/assertive a personality

I know that many of these issues can be overcome with proper socialization, training and breeding. And that even within a breed personalities vary amongst individual dogs. But if we could speak in generalities here, it would be most appreciated. I have taken our dobe thru level 2 obedience, he knows sit, down, come, stay, stand and hand signals for sit, down and come. Our rottx the same. So although I don't have a problem with an assertive type breed, it would be nice not to have to deal with that considering we have a young child now, although I know that comes with the territory when considering any of the guarding/working breeds. I have my eye on the Leonberger as a possibility but don't know just how well they would be at protecting us if the need came about? Anyone here know?

Thank you all very much for your time taken to read my ramblings and for any information that any of you are able to offer.

Cheers!
Ellen

[KatzNK9]

I'd recommend a Golden Retriever or a Labrador Retriever for being kid friendly & on the large side. They're both on the higher activity levely but don't have to have "a job" but will gladly take one on if you give it to them. As far as guard dog issues, neither really fits the category with anything other than warning barks. I think you have to give up some protection traits if you really want your first criteria to be kid-friendly (and both those breeds are the kinds that kinds can absolutely almost maul to the complete satisfaction of the dog).

[Sabledog]

theres plenty of breeds to choose from in that category labrador,Golden retreiver, greater swiss mountain dog, chesapeake bay retreiver, Rhodesian ridgeback (<--my personal favorite), bernese mountain dog, or an airdale terrier, thats just a few i can think of, but i think its better to adopt a dog from the shelter than to buy a puppy plus you can choose a dog that fits your lifestyle and is already housebroken and older so you dont have to go through the puppy stages (having kids myself i know how hard it is)

[golden&hovawart]

My family has owned,leonbergers,for the last 20 yrs.We've had only males,non neutered.Great guard dogs,have litterally pushed people,out of the property, by putting their paws,on their shoulders and pushing them,out.They are very impressive and most people won't leave their car,until they've been told to come out.Good with kids,My nephew learnt to walk,by holding on to one.Now,with all breed,you need to be careful with kids and obviously train them.Yes,I would recommend them as a family dog.Would own one,here,if I had the space.Forgot to mention,they love to swim.
PS:Make sure that the breeder is reputable.

[BratBoxers]

I would recommend a Boxer being great family dogs, naturally protective, Low coat maintenance, they are high energy and not 24/7 outside breed though. They are ppl dogs and want to be with their ppl. They are very easily trained I do highly recommend Obedience. Other than the high energy they fit I think what you are looking for.

[LesterJ]

I used to live in BC too! I really miss it a lot. :(

If you live in the lower mainland, how about going to some dogshows in Cloverdale? Or dog shows elsewhere in BC, if you don't live close. It's great to get up and personal with the different dog breeds and talk to breeders personally. In Cloverdale especially, you can visit the grooming building to talk to people. (Unless things have changed since we moved).

Basically all the smooth coated breeds you can think of do shed hair in varying degrees. But I guess you'd be used to that. I find the Airedales to be particularly attractive and endearing--our neighbour babysits one frequently. A really nice larger terrier with low grooming needs. Labs of any kind are quite nice and docile in general. Good luck! Hope you keep posting and giving updates. :)

[Ishie]

You could try a smaller dog that could live inside with no real trouble.
The dog I reccomend totally is a Cavalier King Charles. They are extremely affectionate and the sweetest dog I have ever known around children.
I worked in the Kindergarten class last year and every few days the techer would bring in her cavaliers and they were absolutely brilliant animals with the kids!

They don't need as much excersize as you posted, about 15-30 minutes per day. They have gorgeous colours. The only thing is that they might not be too happy with having to stay outside. In that case, I reccomend the Golden Retriever, like many other people here!

I'm jumping in my boots with excitement- Only two months until I get my own Golden! :D

[tessa_s212]

Look into the sporting breeds, would be my suggestion. Though, they do have some coat, if you go for shorter coated dogs it shouldn't be all that big a problem.

[ellen73]

to all who took the time to respond to my post. I really appreciate all of the thoughtful answers I received. I have considered a smaller dog but we have cougar and bear in our area so I feel more comfortable with a larger dog. As well, my husband works away from home all day leaving myself and our daughter alone at home for long stretches and sometimes he is away overnights for work too. I just feel better with a larger dog watching out for us. I have given careful consideration to some of the breeds mentioned like the Greater Swiss Mountain Dog and Rhodesian Ridgeback. But I read that the GSMD takes a long time to housetrain and the Ridgeback is a bit smaller than I would like. I was very pleased to hear the comments made by golden&hovawart about the Leonberger. I honestly think that they would be a wonderful choice for us. We live about 25 mins from a lake and live on 5 acres which they could be taken for long walks on. I like that they are generally quiet unless aroused and that they are fairly inactive when in the house but enjoy romping with you when outside. I thought that with Great Pyrenees in their makeup that they would be wonderful guard dogs, but the information I found did not make reference to their suitablility as a guard dog, only that they were good watchdogs - of course everyone has their own definition of what a watchdog and a guarddog so it can get confusing. I was also told by a breeder who I contacted that they weren't a guard dog but only a watch dog. I need something that will act if need be and it seems from what golden&hovawart said and some other anecdotal evidence I have found on the net, they will.
Thanks again to everyone for their time and assistance. I have made my decision - a Leo it is! Now to find a breeder:)

Cheers,
Ellen

[golden-lover]

Golden Retriever
Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever
Saint Bernard

[KatzNK9]

Leonberger Links:

http://www.leonberger.com/

http://www.leonberger-rescue.org/

http://www.leonbergerclubofamerica.com/

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/leonberger.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonberger

http://www.leoclub.us/

[Sabledog]

im not sure where you read that rhodesians are small? females average about 70-80 lbs and males get up to 120 lbs. that to me is a pretty big dog!! lol i am planning to have one some time in my life but dont have the room for them right now, let me link something for you to read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodesian_Ridgeback

[ellen73]

Thank you for the continued suggestions. KatzNK9 many thanks for the links to Leonberger info. Although I have been doing research for around 8 months now and have perused most of them I will go through the list just to make sure. Sabledog - you are certainly passionate about the Rhodesian Ridgeback:) However, I have checked out your wikipedia link and then went to the breed standard on their US club website. The average size of a male Ridgeback is approx. 80 lbs. although some get larger. That being said, most breeders I would assume will strive to keep their dogs at or near the breed standard weight although due to genetics some will fall outside that size range. I guess when I said large, what I really meant was giant. Our Rottx female is around 90 lbs. and I would like something larger - around the 150 range. I would really like one of those nice old farm dogs that look like they are everyone's best friend until someone were to cross them or threaten their family - then watch out! A huge, huggable, furry companion that enjoys lounging their days away but is ready to do something fun and exciting when you are, and is capable of keeping up with you. A friend with a heart of gold and loyalty and devotion that won't stop!!

Thanks again for all your help!

Ellen

[golden&hovawart]

These are pictures of my leonbergers.
The last one,on the page,is the one,my mother has,at this point.
Yes,they are good watch dogs but they are not guard dogs.The difference is that the dog will only attack if you are,in danger.

[ellen73]

That's exactly what I want, something that won't attack unless one of us is in danger - other than that just to keep watch and enjoy life:) They sound perfect. And what beautiful dogs, you are very fortunate to have such wonderful memories.
Thanks for all the great info.! Any other information you consider worthy of sharing I would love to hear it!

Ellen

[trudge1978]

what about a shorthaired german shepard they are great with kids they can be active but also quite lazy at times
we have had a german shepard cross since she was 7 weeks old she is nearly 4 now and great with everyone including kids
as for grooming they are very low to maintain we find with zena that once a week with a brush is good enough
they are also quite happy to be outside or in and when needed can be good guard dogs

[LesterJ]

Good luck with your search. It's too bad that the large dogs like the Leonberger are so short lived. :( As with Great Danes, the Leonberger has a lifespan of only 7-8 years, which means they enter the geriatric stage around 5. This is true of most Giant breeds.

[Sabledog]

the leo sounds perfect for you then! they are such beautiful dogs, but if you cant find one there is also the tibetan mastiff which is another extra large breed and similar to the leo in looks just different colors and a little different body type very nice dogs too!

http://rarebreed.com/breeds/tibetan/tibetan.html

[Monkey]

why not a kangal?? or an ovtjarka?? Kangal is one of my fav breeds. If I were you I would look at any of the longhaired molosses. go to
http://www.moloss.com/001/ptxt/breed.html
There you have a bunch, molosser are usually EXTREMLY kidfriendly and peoplefriendly as long as you socialise right. Even the ovtjarka no matter what rumors are said. I know a few in person of course they took some work but they love everyone that does not opose a threat to family and they are big and bad enough for a cougar. Good luck in your search!

[dlambertz]

Do your research on a dane. Great family dogs and wonderful with kids :)

[ellen73]

the Caucasian Ovcharka is described as "independent, ironwilled and supremely confident." Hmmm....I really don't think that is something I want to have to deal with:confused: Our dobe was a challenge to me, and there are still times when I can't even remove an item from his mouth without having him growl at me and bare his teeth:mad: The best we have managed is to just avoid those confrontations and try to prevent the situation from occuring in the first place. Now the Kangal (aka Anatolian Shepherd) is not quite so scary to me, but there is still that issue of being independent and strong willed. Also, aren't they nocturnal barkers like their other fellow livestock guardian breeds (ie: Pyrenees, Akbash, etc.)? I also read that they refuse to take direction from children as they don't view them as an authority. This concerns me in regards to the potential for aggression behaviours to develop, and with a young child that is something that I cannot tolerate, but at the same time don't know how to deal with a situation like that successfully if it were to arise. I am looking for a breed without too dominant a personality. Now, if you have any additional information regarding either of these breeds I am more than interested in reading it. Because other than this apparent dominance/strong personality they have, they sound like a great dog! And of course they have this type of personality in order to be good at the job they were bred to do. Do you have any hands-on experience with these two breeds? Could you compare their personalities, in general, with a doberman - since that is the only other purebred I am familiar with in person?

On the topic of the Great Dane, although they are giant they have a short, single coat which is something I am trying to steer clear from this time around:) I have read conflicting information regarding their protection abilities and also that the black and white variants (ie: Mantels, Bostons, Harlequins) tend to be on the more active and temperamental side, and that the Fawns, Apricots make a better family dog but without that protective urge.

However, I am still interested in any other suggestions or information anyone has to contribute. Monkey, I would be very interested in finding out what you have to say further about the Kangal or Ovcharka. Thank you all again and I will continue to check back and see what anyone else has to say.

Cheers!
Ellen

[dogluver4]

I would recommend either Ibizan Hounds- They are kinda large, affectionate,kind,loyal, short haired so it doesn't require much grooming,excellent with kids...maybe not new borns....

Also a sheltie! They are same...loving,affectionate,loyal, they do tend to be over excessive barkers though, small,not to much energy but needs to be walked daily.

My choices would be...
Ibizan Hounds/Pharaoh Hounds
Mini Aussies
Great Dane
Itilain Greyhound
Weimaraner

Good luck!

[brittanyasands]

our weim is great with kids. very cuddly. very easy grooming. a wonderful companion.

she is also wonderful with my dobie.

[AnnaS]

Ellen73--I joined just so I could reply. I have 5 dogs: 2 GSD, 1 border collie and a Boston Terrier. Recently I adopted an Akbash puppy for Animal Control.(he'd become separated from his sheeherd during our summer wildfires). Azi is now ~15 months old, 32" at the shoulder and 115#--expected to mature at 120#+. Yes he is independent--but he also the sweetest most agreeable and laid back dog I have ever met. Medium hair--can stand hot and cold weather--does alert bark, but accepts everyone I accept and shows no aggressiveness toward other animals or people. Moreoever he is absolutely besotted by small animals and children. The Boston has already sent him to the vet's for a puncture wound to the face--yet he is absolutely inhibited from fighting back. Small children run up to him at the park and he just puts his head down and lets them do what they want (what are their parents thinking?). I was looking for the same thing you are--a very large dog that would protect me if need be, but be tolerant of other family members and pets. The "indpendence" is more that they do not respond quickly to orders--they like to think about it. But they are easy to housebreak, slow moving and careful around the house and they learn very quickly. My GSD are 7 and 10 and although they are wonderful, I wanted something less high drive and demanding for the future. Azi even puts up with my Border Collie--who is a real control freak. I would serously look into one of the Turkish breeds if you have the space--almost all are excellent with small children and family members--but they can take on large predators if need be, and look pretty intimidating to humans with bad intentions. Of course look for a first rate breeder--or use a rescue group were they vet the dogs for temperament.

[ellen73]

Thank you Anna, for going through the sign up process just to respond to me, I really appreciate you doing that.

Thank you for clarifying the stubborness/willfullness issue. I don't have a problem with slow reaction to a request, but wouldn't tolerate non-compliance to something I have asked the dog to do. Sounds like they aren't too bad in this regard, of course all dogs have their good and bad days this way:rolleyes:

I do have a couple other questions for you - how do you find your dog's barking to be at night? Do you bring him in at night? And does he tend to stay around home? Do you have a fenced yard/property? These are just things I need to work into the equation when making my decision. I have been seriously looking at the Great Pyrenees, but the nocturnal barking would be a real problem for us since we want to use the dog as a property watchdog and can't have it barking at every little flittering leaf or critter that decides to pass through the property:) We keep our dogs in a kennel overnight in the temperate weather so I can only expect that being confined would only exacerbate this trait?

Anyhow, thank you once again for your time and information. I did think that a Leo would work for us but I don't think so anymore. Still continuing my search. If you have any further info. to pass along, I am all ears!

Cheers!

[eb4i]

Mastiff.

You're already used to the Rottie temperment... Mastiff is just the same.

Big old English Mastiff

Or a Nice Neopolitan Mastiff... they're so ugly, they're cute!

Great with kids, easy to maintain... Go mastiff!

[travis]

I would reccomend my breed a Curly coated retriever,ticks your box's:)

[Monkey]

the Caucasian Ovcharka is described as "independent, ironwilled and supremely confident." Hmmm....I really don't think that is something I want to have to deal with:confused: Our dobe was a challenge to me, and there are still times when I can't even remove an item from his mouth without having him growl at me and bare his teeth:mad: The best we have managed is to just avoid those confrontations and try to prevent the situation from occuring in the first place. Now the Kangal (aka Anatolian Shepherd) is not quite so scary to me, but there is still that issue of being independent and strong willed. Also, aren't they nocturnal barkers like their other fellow livestock guardian breeds (ie: Pyrenees, Akbash, etc.)? I also read that they refuse to take direction from children as they don't view them as an authority. This concerns me in regards to the potential for aggression behaviours to develop, and with a young child that is something that I cannot tolerate, but at the same time don't know how to deal with a situation like that successfully if it were to arise. I am looking for a breed without too dominant a personality. Now, if you have any additional information regarding either of these breeds I am more than interested in reading it. Because other than this apparent dominance/strong personality they have, they sound like a great dog! And of course they have this type of personality in order to be good at the job they were bred to do. Do you have any hands-on experience with these two breeds? Could you compare their personalities, in general, with a doberman - since that is the only other purebred I am familiar with in person?

On the topic of the Great Dane, although they are giant they have a short, single coat which is something I am trying to steer clear from this time around:) I have read conflicting information regarding their protection abilities and also that the black and white variants (ie: Mantels, Bostons, Harlequins) tend to be on the more active and temperamental side, and that the Fawns, Apricots make a better family dog but without that protective urge.

However, I am still interested in any other suggestions or information anyone has to contribute. Monkey, I would be very interested in finding out what you have to say further about the Kangal or Ovcharka. Thank you all again and I will continue to check back and see what anyone else has to say.

Cheers!
Ellen

That is the thing.. the ones Ive meet have been really well trained dogs. usually when it says independent and stubborn it only means a low will to please. (GSD and border collies usually have a high will to please). This will to please is often easy incresable with hot dogs, and other really yummy treats that and the right basics of socialisation and training.

None of them Ive meet have been dominant towards family members that they have grown up with, they are usually very packoriented with the family but they do not suffer as much either to be left alone longer periods of time due to this fact of what Ive seen and understood with the ones Ive known.

They are more chilled and laid back as a dog personality. Of course it can take some more patience and training to get them obediant due to the fact that they need a lot of motivation.

The barking, no, I have not heard them uncontrllable bark, of course again they were trained properly from the start. cept the ovtcharka she was an import and got here when she was 16 month, she still turned out perfect.
My 5 month old flatcoated could jump on her when she lied down on the side and she just let him. and she was raised in a cage in a russian kennel so she had lack of socialisation, and all of that and she is one of the most perfect dogs ive meet. The owner said however that it took a lot of hot dogs and sausages and different tricks to keep training FUN for the dog to keep her motivatied.

If you want a kid friendly dog, that is easier to train, big enough, Hmm mastiffs in general needs a bit more motivation they can be somewhat "slow" due to lack of it. Ill keep thinking, maybe something pops up in my head. anyhow good luck on whatever you choose :)