Breeding shih tzu's / hernia

[cookiemama]

Hi new members so lots of questions
We have taken our pup for her jabs and on the second visit our vet told us our pup couldnt have a litter later on as she has at present a small hernia
We rang the breeder where we purchased her for a small fortune I might add and she told us it wouldn't be a problem, she told us she would be ok and to consult other breeders and they would tell us the same thing, the vet was probably not a shih tzu specialist and didn't know enough about the breed to make that judgement
Does anyone out there have any feedback?
It's not a definate that we would want her to have a litter, however we would feel cheated if that option were taken away as the breeder had not informed us properly
thanks

[lassie]

hi most small hernia 's do disappear.

[golden&hovawart]

I was always told that you couldn't breed a dog with an hernia cos it was heridatary and they can pass it on to their puppies.It is not normally life threatening.If you do want to breed her and you are not attached to the dog,I would bring the dog,back and ask,for yr money.If you are attached, to her,then keep the dog but do spay her.

[lassie]

was the hernia pointed out to you when you bought her? was they aware that you might want to breed from her?

[cookiemama]

Interesting everyone!
We have spoken to the breeder, cookies (aunty) has a hernia, the breeder is a member of the Kennel Club the litter was registered and so are (mum & dad), we did know about the hernia and asked all the right questions, and directly asked about a litter after the vet said she recommended no pups, the breeder said she would be ok to have pups and we could ask any breeder and they would be ok
She went on to say that when the shih tzu was brought over to Europe it was bred with pikanese (sorry for spelling) and that that was where the hernia had developed from and it is a trate of the breed.
we have had problems with a previous pup who we put a deposit on with an accredited kc breeder, we eventually got our money back there as she was selling a pup with no papers breeding from unregistered stock for the same money as registered pups so we haven't had much luck
we are firmly attached to our cookie now and wouldn't part with her but definatley feel cheated, we paid a lot of money for her, for her pedigree and papers and now we cant have pups, I feel we should be compensated, what do you think???
Thanks everyone for your feedback!!!

[lassie]

Interesting everyone!
.
we have had problems with a previous pup who we put a deposit on with an accredited kc breeder, we eventually got our money back there as she was selling a pup with no papers breeding from unregistered stock for the same money as registered pups so we haven't had much luck
we are firmly attached to our cookie now and wouldn't part with her but definatley feel cheated, we paid a lot of money for her, for her pedigree and papers and now we cant have pups, I feel we should be compensated, what do you think???
Thanks everyone for your feedback!!!

Firstly, i hope you wrote to the Kennel Club about the first pup you bought from the so called accredited breeder.

Secondly, hard call as the breeder made you aware of the hernia, it would be difficult and costly to prove that they did or didnt point out the hernia. Did you sign anything to say you were aware of it?

[cookiemama]

yes as stated we did know about the hernia, but the breeder we bought her from said she would be ok to have a litter, we have spoken since purchasing her and she said the vet wasn't a shih tzu expert and she would be ok to have pups, just puzzled now, the breeder is listed with the kc I thought she would have known her stuff!

[tessa_s212]

Doesn't sound like a reputable breeder at all. I woudl discontinue taking ANY advice from this breeder.

The important question is do you have a *legitimate* reason for wanting to breed? Are you going to show your dog? Prove it in some way? Did you have plans of health testing?

[Amber23]

The breeder does not sound legitimate, at all. As others have said, you do not want to breed a dog with negative traits. Please get her spayed.

[AnimalHouse]

What I have been told is.. Dogs with papers... Don't mean they are healthy and able to breed... BYB Can get papers... Yet the puppys are inbred. AKC... UKC.. all those orginizations just send papers to the breeder... if both parents are registered.. the puppy can be.. But they don't come out and see the property the puppy is at.. or the conditions of the dogs.. So.. a dog with papers isn't always a sign that it is a well breed puppy.. But no, I am not a breeder,and Don't know anything bout it. But I have done some research at one point, cause I Was interested in Showing,and breeding.. But it is Alot of work,and have decided not too..

[cookiemama]

Thanks everyone for feedback.
We wont be showing cookie, and we are not going to be "breeding" her, it was more a case of the option bieng taken away from us now!
The breeder is registered and is a lovely lady with a beautiful home and exellent conditions for the pups, she shows her dogs.
We had received conflicting advice and was interested to hear different views on the subject.
We will be contacting the Kennel Club to get some professionl advice, thank you everyone, you all seem passionate about the subject and only want what is best for the pup in question.
She is our little diamond and is pamperd to the max!!!

[Katlovesdogs]

To cookiemama,

Im sorry to hear of this unfortunate sitution you are in, I know how you feel about 'having the option' to breed, it is majorly unfair of the breeder. Once a veterinary proffessional tells you she can't be bred, the breeder to be honest should have turned round, apologise and offered you another puppy or you're money back, because the advise she gave you on breeding was wrong, according to a vet, who to be honest knows more than her.

Now im gunna be ignorant.... can hernias not be cause by trauma in the womb? is it near where the placenta was? could the placenta have been pulled and contributed to the hernia? If so then theres surely a chance the pup was just unlucky to get a hernia and isn't necessarily inherently vaunerably to them. If she is a wonderful example of the breed in every other way and the hernia is only small, I'd say she'd be find to breed with, but thats just me.:)

Can I ask what do u mean the breeder is registered?

:cool:

[cookiemama]

Hi catloves dogs
dont know much about hernias but will contact the breeder to find out how cookies hernia was caused, but think it will be hereditary type as cookies (aunty) and (cousin) both have them!
breeder is registered with the kennel club as a shih tzu breeder

[Mahooli]

Hello, I'm on a UK Shih Tzu forum and this is the reply I got when I asked what health checks I should be looking out for.
"There aren't currently any mandated tests for Shih Tzu in the UK.
Health wise, certain hernias and very tight nostrils are a couple of things that would normally discount a dog from being bred on from though."
As you can see they specifically said do not breed from a hernia. It is a very large problem in Shih Tzu's and apparently not many lines are free from it but the only way to decrease the incidence of it would be not to breed from dogs that have them.
Becky

[cookiemama]

thanks for that, am contacting KC and breeder I think we have enough negative feedback now so I feel confident confronting her with her recommendations!

[golden&hovawart]

thanks for that, am contacting KC and breeder I think we have enough negative feedback now so I feel confident confronting her with her recommendations!

You,obviously, love yr pup and I'm sure you will do what is best for you,yr puppy and yr breed.
Obviously hernia seems to be a problem,in the breed.
Yr puppy is gorgeous and I'm sure she'll have a wonderful life with you.

[borzoimom]

It depends on the type of hernia. If the hernia is in the abdominal wall- then no the pup can not be bred later due to the stress of contractions in delivery. I am not a vet, and would suggest to get a second opinion on this. As you know, "just being a pet" does not take away from being a great pet at that. The hernia could be caused by the cord being cut or bite too short- or could be genetic.
General rule of thumb is- if the hernia " bump" can be pushed back in, its not a abdominal type of hernia. However- for the sake of the puppy, its really a vets call here. Toy breeds are already common in having delivery problems- no reason to 'raise the bar'. C-sections are common in toy breeds. Usually litters are small and if bred to a bigger male- the pups are also sometimes too big to pass.

[KatzNK9]

It depends on the type of hernia. If the hernia is in the abdominal wall- then no the pup can not be bred later due to the stress of contractions in delivery. I am not a vet, and would suggest to get a second opinion on this. As you know, "just being a pet" does not take away from being a great pet at that. The hernia could be caused by the cord being cut or bite too short- or could be genetic.
General rule of thumb is- if the hernia " bump" can be pushed back in, its not a abdominal type of hernia. However- for the sake of the puppy, its really a vets call here. Toy breeds are already common in having delivery problems- no reason to 'raise the bar'. C-sections are common in toy breeds. Usually litters are small and if bred to a bigger male- the pups are also sometimes too big to pass.

Yes, I agree. There are different types of hernias & there is often no way to tell what causes them. I've had a couple of abdominal hernias in kittens obviously caused by some extremely difficult deliveries. I have, however, spayed or neutered all who have had hernias regardless of cause as there's no 100% guarantee of the cause & the weakened abdominal wall in itself makes the cat an unacceptable choice for breeding in the case of a female (males should even moreso be of absolute unquestionable quality without any potential hereditary issues or be neutered if there is any doubt) ... but makes a perfect pet or cat to be shown in Premiership (cats have the advantage of having a neuter/spay class:) to compete for awards).

[borzoimom]

If it is wide spread in the breed, my guess is the cord is pulled passing through the cervix.. Hmmm. Just my opinion knowing how a puppy is born but it would make sense.
BTW I am sorry - I forgot to mention- MAN YOU HAVE A CUTE PUPPY!!! :thumbsupsmileyanim:

[cookiemama]

hi guys just checked out this thread to see if anyone else had different opinion.
Cookie's hernia is tiny and it can be pushed back in it hardly ever pops out now, only if shes eaten a big meal and the vet checks it out when we take her for her monthly worming tablet
oh by the way I wrote to the kennel club nearly 2 weeks ago and have had no reply of any kind!
think it stinks for such a big group am going to send another letter and wait agian
thanks everyone, love cookie pups or no pups, shes our baby!

[borzoimom]

hi guys just checked out this thread to see if anyone else had different opinion.
Cookie's hernia is tiny and it can be pushed back in it hardly ever pops out now, only if shes eaten a big meal and the vet checks it out when we take her for her monthly worming tablet
oh by the way I wrote to the kennel club nearly 2 weeks ago and have had no reply of any kind!
think it stinks for such a big group am going to send another letter and wait agian
thanks everyone, love cookie pups or no pups, shes our baby!
Well I rather doubt a kennel club would get involved with a matter dealing with a vets opinions. Sometimes things vets say we donot want to hear it- but for the health of the dog, we need to listen as you know. There is just as much chance that this could be genetic. I know you would not want someone else with their puppy they got from you, to go though the same concerns.
Example- when hottie was injured as a pup- some vets said yes the later OCD was caused by throwing his weight. I also know from breeding that the fact is- there could have been a weakness in there that not only caused the OCD later- but maybe even the break itself. Hottie was obviously never bred. Not even considered- as beautiful as he is other wise- I just never had a clear cut, general concensis that this was not caused by a weakness- . When in any doubt- do not breed. As I said- remember others behind you that may very well go through the same exact worries..

[KaraLee04]

Please get her s so many dogs in shelters that need homes!

[ladyorchid]

I know you have had a mass amount of replies, I breed Shih Tzu and have for 8 yrs. The type of hernia makes all the difference. If it is found where the umbilical cord once was, it is an umbilical hernia. These hernias have a 50% chance of being a problem. if it comes and goes, then I would not worry, otherwise you will just have to decide if you want to take the chance. I use my instincts with my dogs, so I would have to say that if you are worried, you should not breed her. If not, then go ahead. Umbilical hernias have the possibility of opening, internally, in such a way that would allow for the intestines to become caught and kinked and would threaten her life. This could happen whether or not you breed her if you do not have it removed. Any other hernia and you are likely to pass the problem on to the pups and that is not fair to their future owners. I am sorry I could not give you a definite yes or no, but hopefully told you enough that you could make a good decision.

[agilityk9trainer]

The original poster of this thread posted a year ago. They are no longer around the board so any advice given is long past due. Pulling up really old threads just confuses us. :) Thanks.

[applesmom]

:DI was just typing the same thing.:D

There's been a lot of old threads responded to lately. :)

[skunkstripe]

The OP may be long gone, but someone else facing the issue of 'to breed or not to breed' when a hernia is involved may find it helpful. :)