Shepherds (of the German or Swiss variety)

[Ceph]

Does any one else here like German Shepherds or Whie Shephers/Berger Blanc Suisse?

I am bringing a Berger Blanc Suisse puppy home with me in three months, who I plan to show in the UKC as a White Shepherd. I also plan on using this puppy as the first step in breeding and improving upon these wonderful dogs in the US. (I believe if you breed you dont breed for pet quality animals - you breed to make the best, and only to improve upon what is already there)

I thought I would post some history of the White Shepherd...if someone wants to chime in with German Shepherds (we're all relatives here :D ) you are welcome to.

Here's a good bit of history on the Whites as well as the history of the German Shepherd:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berger_Blanc_Suisse

I think there was alot of friction created between the Whites and the colored dogs, but I think they are equal in beauty and they are after all related. The white coat simple has two e's in genetics rather than one or two E's :p

I know confirmation wise the Whites tend more towards having a straighter back (the hind quarters dont dip at the same angle as the German Shepherds). In Europe the Berger Blanc Suisse comes in both long and short coated, and they are somewhat smaller in size than colored shepherds. The Berger Blanc Suisse is recogniced by the FCI, and recognized by the UKC as a White Shepherd. UKC fully registers White German Shepherds along with the colored breeds in addition to registering White Shepherds. The UKC parent club for the white shepherd is UWSC. The AKC also registers whites, though they are banned from the show ring, and the parent club for the White shephed is the AWSA - which is trying to gain recognition from the AKC as a seperate breed.

here are some pics! enjoy, and feel free to post your own dogs...I love to see them all as I believe they are all wondefully beautiful creatures!

These are the pictures of the parents of my future pup: the bitch is Daisy (or Amarushaya Von der Nordhelle) who is owned by Vivid Daydreams in the Netherlands. Cumano is on the second post and is standing stud at Von der Nordhelle in Germany :). Both are genetically sound and excellent ambassadors of there breed.

Daisy:
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/catehelf/White%20(Swiss)%20Shepherds/The%20Parents/abc3.jpg

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/catehelf/White%20(Swiss)%20Shepherds/The%20Parents/abc9.jpg

Daisy as a Puppy 1:
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/catehelf/White%20(Swiss)%20Shepherds/The%20Parents/daisya1.jpg

Daisy as a Puppy 2:
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/catehelf/White%20(Swiss)%20Shepherds/The%20Parents/daisy4mnd1.jpg

Nothing better than a muddy dog running hec bent toward you :D
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/catehelf/White%20(Swiss)%20Shepherds/The%20Parents/dais87.jpg

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/catehelf/White%20(Swiss)%20Shepherds/The%20Parents/dais852.jpg

[Ceph]

Cumano:
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/catehelf/White%20(Swiss)%20Shepherds/The%20Parents/cumano5.jpg

Biiiiig Mouth :p
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/catehelf/White%20(Swiss)%20Shepherds/The%20Parents/cumanodl5.jpg

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/catehelf/White%20(Swiss)%20Shepherds/The%20Parents/Cumano_stehend_neu.jpg

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/catehelf/White%20(Swiss)%20Shepherds/The%20Parents/Cumano_liegend_neu.jpg

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/catehelf/White%20(Swiss)%20Shepherds/The%20Parents/cumano7.jpg

[KatzNK9]

Beautiful dogs! Good luck with your breeding program.

[PomeranianCrazy]

Beautiful Pics! Thanks for sharing the pics and information with us. Hope the program goes well!

[sheplovr]

Welcome sweetie and nice dog, in Germany they kill the whites and blacks. Sorry to say as they have lived in my home and I know how they think and feel now alot more so. I only breed the West German Lines so I can only show at Seiger shows against their own kind. AKC you would show the whites and it would be very hard to get a win. They were freaks some years back and alot kept contacting the AKC so they accepted them with papers. They are not the normal Shepherd no offense as I love all dogs, but you might have a harder time selling puppies and breeding tops lines. Keep researching the lines as I do not know of them myself only West German. I wish you the best your dog is gorgeous.:D

[brunosmom]

Beautiful dogs.....:)

[Ceph]

:) I am not offended...They are registered as Berger Blanc Suisse overseas, and I believe that if you tend to get a white shepherd out of german's they do kill them or they are bought by BBS owners. I love the states, we are much more tolerant :p.

lol, the thing I love about this is I dont plan on breeding White German Shepherds...I plan on breeding White Shepherds...they are a different breed in the UKC, and in Europe...which is where my puppy is coming from :p I know the main breeders from the States, and the cool thing about this breeding is the parents share one ancestor I think 5 generations back...and there are several dogs (white shepherds) in the states that I might be able to breed back too if the puppy ends up being of good quality. I also plan in the future to bring in some other lines from Switzerland, the US, Canada and Australia :D Its neat...I have talked to about four over seas breeders....I never realized before I started planning this how the dog world can be just that...a world wide community...I imagine its the same in other breeds.

lol, I WISH those were my dogs, those are the parents, though as pretty as they are the puppy should be too.

[MyDogShelby]

I LOVE White Shepherds Ceph :) They are SO beautiful :wubsmiley:
The pictures you posted in this thread are amazing :thumb:
Have you ever seen a Shiloh Shepherd? I like those too :)
You can learn about them by visiting www.shilohshepherds.org (http://www.shilohshepherds.org)
Here's a pic of one:
http://members.core.com/%7Efsteffan/ShilohShepherdImage.jpg

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http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u6/MyDogShelby/Dog-09-june.gif

[Areias]

I love White Shepherds...I don't know what it is, but I have never met a "bad one" out of the bunch. They are great dogs!

I have a German Shepherd. She is a wonderful dog...I love her dearly. I'm not sure I would ever have another one, though :). Mine is a rescue, she's almost 8 years old. Here's a picture of her:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/175/415834010_94a8a4d439.jpg

[GreyhoundGirl]

I love white sheps. :D I love the yawning shot you got. LOL!!! You have a great camera and you've got some wonderful shots. :)

[Ceph]

haha! I actually have seen the shiloh site before - I think I would have to have a really big house before I considered getting one...they are huuuuge! Very pretty...I think I just like that long fur. :D

[mysterydog1]

The whites are the best. >.< I can't stand hoe they are "mis-treated"

[Ceph]

lol,

Anyone else :p I wish I could rename this thread to Shepherds of German Descent - lol, that would cover about everything I meant...Whites, Swiss, Shiloh and Germans....

I would love to see posts and pictures of your dogs!

[sheplovr]

I have 7 West German Shepherds a few I am sending on here, one is Ace a pup born Aug 24 of 06 litter. Forget now what I am sending but you can look at my profile and see my site I maintain of them. Expecting to be up tonight with Gillion 3 yrs bred to Inko my 2 yr old Marko della Valcuvia son. She is very large and did not eat today and this is her day. Love your dogs.:D

[Ceph]

oh your dogs are Beautiful. I am a sucker for German Shepherds :D They are so Beautiful...I love the coats on yous :D

[S-J]

I love German Shepherd here is a pic of our beautiful Katie at 8 months old :wubsmiley: http://www.dogforum.org/gallery/data/500/medium/2007_01080001.JPG

[Ceph]

Oh, what a beautiful girl....I love plush puppies...they all look so cuddly :D

[Cheetah]

What gorgeous long coats!! If I ever got a white shepherd, I'd hunt down parents with long coats like that... <3

[Ceph]

What gorgeous long coats!! If I ever got a white shepherd, I'd hunt down parents with long coats like that... <3

lol, I did hunt them down :p Its part of the reason I am going so far to get one...there are a couple other breeders in the states (very good wonderful ones too) but they dont adopt to homes without fences...which I dont have :(

I plan on breeding both long and short coats when I finally get an operation set up (lol, probably going to start after my puppy is two years old, so two years from now :D). I love them both, but the first BBS I saw was a long coat, and I a partial to them :D

[skunkstripe]

I find them far more attractive than the sable varieties. I am a little unclear as to why white is considered a fault by the AKC, but glad that they can be registered with the UKC. Really to me the White Shepherds are one of the most beautiful and well-rounded dogs around.

[Nicolelj]

Welcome sweetie and nice dog, in Germany they kill the whites and blacks. Sorry to say as they have lived in my home and I know how they think and feel now alot more so. I only breed the West German Lines so I can only show at Seiger shows against their own kind. AKC you would show the whites and it would be very hard to get a win. They were freaks some years back and alot kept contacting the AKC so they accepted them with papers. They are not the normal Shepherd no offense as I love all dogs, but you might have a harder time selling puppies and breeding tops lines. Keep researching the lines as I do not know of them myself only West German. I wish you the best your dog is gorgeous.:D

Actually I have to disagree with you on several points. There are breeders of White Shepherds and White German Shepherds in Germany. Some breeders do cull them but not all do.

Also they were never seen as "freaks" as you call them. The White Shepherd has always been a part of the GSD breed. A white was one of the dogs used to create the breed. Whites were shown with their colored counterparts in the AKC up till the 1960's. Then they were classed as a fault. Before tehn they were shown. With the CKC they were able to be shown till the late 1990's with their colored counterparts. And they have always been able to be registered. That never changed. There was never a time where they could not be registered with the AKC or the CKC. They have always been registered as GSD's with both of them. As for being normal shepherds they are. The only real difference is color. That is it. As for selling them or showing them neither is very hard depending on where you live. Showing for me is difficult because all the shows are at the other end of Canada or in the States. As for selling them trust me their is a VERY high demand for well bred White Shepherds so you must be very careful in screening your adopters.

Agian I am sorry to disagree with you but it is false information like you posted that have made it so hard for White Shepherds to seperate from teh GSD breed.
Nicole & Sheena

[Nicolelj]

Does any one else here like German Shepherds or Whie Shephers/Berger Blanc Suisse?


I have both. Sheena is a White Shepherd(though she is AKC and CKC registered as a German Shepherd) and Luca is a GSD. My passion is towards the whites as you already know. lol And hopefully this summer I will be taking care of my very first litter of whites. I can't wait to see pics of your little white bundle.
Nicole & Sheena

[Ceph]

lol, I do know that during the Nazi reign the White Shepherds were viewed as an abomonation and killed, but I think since they have gained recognition as a seperate breed they no longer have that problem :)

I dont know that White German Shepherds are bred per se in Germany, I think they are bred as BBS or WSS instead :). I have heard that if a pair priduces whites in some of the hard core german litters they are kept hushhush and killed because in Germans they are considered abominations, though, again this stems from the Nazi Regime. Prior to that they were shown along side the black and tans - in conformation even. Von Stepanitz (I know I spelled that wrong) I believe originally said that there was nothing special about the White coat, but there was nothing worse either :D. Its too bad that the holding down of Whites is such a hold over from that period in time...Hitler had the SV change their rules, and then the SV pressured the American club to do the same, and since Whites have not been a full dog....

I like it better that they are a seperate breed personally...while both those parents resemble german shepherds, they look more wolfy I think, and have changed structurally to resemble VS's (not even going to try spelling this time) original dogs and ideal :) At least thats what I have read...lol.

[golden&hovawart]

They are starting a french speaking forum on Bergers blanc Suisse so You must have quite a lot of them ,in the Francophone countries.

[Nicolelj]

Actually the info on teh Nazi's is still only conjunture. No one is really sure if that was the catalist to the finding fault in the white coat or if there were other reasons. There are many rumours that abound because of this.

As for breeders in Germany of GSD's all killing whites that is not true. I thought it was. I beleived the rumors too. And yes some of the hard core breeders there still do cull them from teh litters. But there are others there that do not cull them. They only fix them and sell them as pets. And there are breeders there that breed White Shepherds. Yes as BBS. Do a search of kennels. That is how I found out that the original rumor that there is not whites in Germany and that German breeders cull all the whites to be untrue. Are tehy accepted like the GSD is. Nope. But they are there.

As for them no longer having a problem since they gain breed seperation that is not true either. Some of the old time breeders and hard core fanatics of the GSD breed still try their best to spread rumours and false hoods about the breed. it will be a long time before the whites get teh respect they deserve.
Nicole & Sheena

[golden&hovawart]

Why not accept them as a GSD if most of Europe does!.
They look like shepherd,behave like shepherd but don't scare people off cos they are white aand they are gorgeous.
Maybe the GSD club is jealous that they might take away the spotlight!!.
I love all color of GSD and I love long hair one.

[Ceph]

Most of europe recognizes white shepherds as berger blanc suisse now, I believe, not as german shepherd dogs....lol, but at the same time my only real experience is with the Netherlands, Italy and Switzerland.

lol, I know that the White GSD's have problems with the hard core breeders...I was mainly pointing out that they have fewer now that they are really no longer GSDs.

I am curious though...Are there White German Shepherd Breeders over there? Or are they all BBS?

You're right about the respect thing though...I have had my head bashed in by a couple of people...but its refreshing to see so many kennels overseas :). The Netherlands have a ton of these dogs...and the Swiss are doing an amazing job of breeding them as well (the swiss always do...I have always maintained that they are some of the most boring people on the planet but it is only because they do everything so thoroughly....at least from what I have seen....no offense to anyone here that is Swiss :p...Switzerland is about my favorite country ever!)

booo...I wish there was a history book on all this stuff...I would be on it like a cat on a mouse. I love trying to figure out what is right and wrong...I always learn something new...thanks nicole!

[Nicolelj]

Why not accept them as a GSD if most of Europe does!.
They look like shepherd,behave like shepherd but don't scare people off cos they are white aand they are gorgeous.
Maybe the GSD club is jealous that they might take away the spotlight!!.
I love all color of GSD and I love long hair one.

We all wish it was that simple. That the WS would be accepted and not seen as a fault simply because of color. And hence be able to show with it's colored counterparts. But the chance of that happening is slim plus WS breeders have differing goals in structure compared to many of the GSD breeders. Seperation, in my opinion, is the only thing that makes sense for this breed to continue to thrive and do as well as it does.
Nicole & Sheena

[Nicolelj]

I am curious though...Are there White German Shepherd Breeders over there? Or are they all BBS?

booo...I wish there was a history book on all this stuff...I would be on it like a cat on a mouse. I love trying to figure out what is right and wrong...I always learn something new...thanks nicole!

I know of one breeder in Germany who strikely breeds WGSD's. Most others are BBS breeders or GSD breeders who have an occasional white. I remember one person on a forum that posted that you will never see a WS in germany because they have been completely bred out of the lines. I laughed so hard I cried. They have been in the lines since the very beginning. Sure the hard core breeders do cull them but most just fix them and sell them as pets.

I wish there was a history book too. I would buy it in a heart beat. It is a lot of work to shift through all the rumours and find the truths. But it is worth it. I am still learning and I doubt there will ever come a time where anyone knows every thing about this gorgeous breed. They are always surprising us.
Nicole & Sheena

[Ceph]

I do so agree :D

I dont think it is possible to wipe all the whites out....genes are too funny for that...and until they can specifically locate the loci to test those genes they will never be able to know if they are a carrier.

All I believe they do is try to minimize the Whites by not breeding recessive pairs together again. But I am glad to hear the majority dont kill them...it makes me feel a little better about the Germans :p

[Nicolelj]

But I am glad to hear the majority dont kill them...it makes me feel a little better about the Germans :p


When I first heard the rumour that all whites were culled in Germany it really made me sick. That is why I did my own research to find out if this was indeed true. I talked to several breeders of GSD's in Germany and the majority said the same thing. They do not cull them but do fix them and sell them as pets. Only the hard core breeders cull them anymore.
Nicole & Sheena

[ritabooker]

Gorgeous dog pics, everyone.

[GSDNewbie]

I dont think it is possible to wipe all the whites out....genes are too funny for that...and until they can specifically locate the loci to test those genes they will never be able to know if they are a carrier

through selective breeding actually whites are not born so much in Germany to colored parents anymore... Unless someone breeds to get one on purpose that is.

[Ceph]

through selective breeding actually whites are not born so much in Germany to colored parents anymore... Unless someone breeds to get one on purpose that is.

but you are going to still see dogs with the recessive gene - thats the only point I was trying to make :D...there is almost nothing you can do to remove that...unless you find out a dog is a carrier by breeding to another carrier, then have all the dogs bred off of those two and the two breeders fixed...which would be a real pain....but since I assume they have done that in the past the number of dogs with the recessive gene will be lower, but still there...making it rarer to have two heterozygous dogs breed together...which is probably why you dont see them very much...only occasionally.

genes are an obnoxious thing :p , but I gotta love em! Especially the white ones :p

lol, I should draw a bunch of punnet squares and scan them so I can post them...its hard talking without them :p

[Ceph]

Hello all :)

I have some German Shepherd related info I thought ya'll might find interesting....and it is.....

BOOKS

lol, I love books.

I was searching the Virginia Tech library for books specific to the German Shepherd, and I found several that looked good in our Veterinary Medical Library. I havent seen them yet, but as the Vet Med Lib is a research facility and school, I am assuming most of the books are of high quality (I'll know for sure tonight)...I have also seen one or two of them recommended.

The German Shepherd Dog: A Genetic History Willis, Malcom
Royal Canin German Shepherd Encyvlodpedia Cont. Dominique Grandjean et all
The German Shepherd Dog Brian H. Wootton
Noble Friends Dickson, Pamela M.
The German Shepherd Today Strickland and Moses

How to be Your Dogs Best Friend Monks of New Skete - not specifically German Shepherd, but since they do rear German Shpherds I think alot of what they teach is based off of what they have learned from the breed...I am in the middle of this one right now.

I am assuming The German Shepherd Dog in Word and Picture by von Stephanitz is a good read too....I just have to work up the gumption to spend 75 dollars on a book that isnt for school :eek:

Anyone else have any good reading suggestions that are related to German/White/Shiloh Shepherds in any way?

[Nachtstern]

You say that you want to better the breed, the one and only breed mentioned here being the German Shepherd Dog, and yet you consistantly talk about how you like plush dogs and some of the dogs you gave pictures of are plush. No matter what you want to call them, a Berger Blanc Suisse, White Shepherd, whatever, you can't escape the history and what made the German Shepherd breed what it is today.

I suggest doing some more research before even thinking about breeding. The point in a stock coat, which is what any breeder should strive for, is for it to be water resistant. It is to give the dog the ability to work in harsh climates, whether hot or cold, all day long in the rain, snow, or sun. Obviously history of a breed means nothing to you meaning you shouldn't breed as any breeder should have a wide knowledge of the history of the breed they are planning on breeding. Let's just dig in a little bit with some quotes from the breed's originator.

"Take this trouble from me: Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog for I have struggled all my life long for that aim."

Said by Stephanitz on his death bed, I guess it means nothing to you. The dogs you show do not conform to the build of a working dog. I'm not saying that to spite you: it's the truth. Take a look at the German Shepherd breed standard. Any would do: the SV, FCI, UKC, or AKC. Daisy's rear is raised too high throwing off her topline. She is much too tight in the chest. Her lips aren't tight as they should be. Her ear set is horrible; same with her ear shape. She is a plush. Cumano's ear set and shape are just as bad as Daisy's. His bottom lips are wet as well. There is no slope in his croup as their should be. His croup, as well as Daisy's, are much too short for the breed. Also, it appears as though both of them are cow hocked and have easty-westies. I can tell that much from a picture. You should be able to as well seeing as you hope to breed.

No matter what the papers say, a white German Shepherd is the same as a black and tan German Shepherd. They are all German Shepherds with the exception that one is accepted by the standard and one is a major fault to the breed. The whole point of a breed standard is to have a breed that differs from others. It makes a German Shepherd not a Golden Retriever.


All plush coated German Shepherds should be spayed/neutered. You expect us to hold the quote "A good dog cannot be a bad colour" to a good thing in the white German Shepherd but if this is what breeders in them do, I would never support them. .


"A white was one of the dogs used to create the breed."

No, they weren't. Horand vom Grafrath's grandsire was white. He was never a part of the breeding program. Max von Stephanitz bought Horand from a show in 1899 because HE represented what Stephanitz wanted, not his ancestors. Horand wasn't even part of the Phylax Society meaning his breeding was simply a breeding of the average shepherd dog.

"Whites were shown with their colored counterparts in the AKC up till the 1960's."

No, the 1950's. However, they were banished from the Verein fur Deutsche Schaferhunde many, many years earlier.

"I believe originally said that there was nothing special about the White coat, but there was nothing worse either"

Stephanitz never said anything like that. He said a good dog cannot be of bad color but that doesn't mean he said they conform to the breed. Stephanitz's first and foremost goals were Utility and Intelligence, conformation coming directly after.

"Hitler had the SV change their rules, and then the SV pressured the American club to do the same, and since Whites have not been a full dog...."

The SV changed their rules long before Hitler's reign. Did it ever strike you as interesting that in the 30 years before Hitler, no white German Shepherd ever took a VA win, even under the judging of Stephanitz? Did it ever strike you as interesting that no dog who ever won VA is related within 4 generations to a white dog. This is because they have always been unnaccepted.


{ edited by Doberman's for content }

[Doberman's]

Nachtstern, while you are entitled to your opinions, so are other members.

This is a forum based on respect and is a dog loving community and that is the reason I am editing your post. It is coarse and not appropriate.

[xcolbi]

Aww, what beautiful dogs! I LOVE White Shepherds! They are just too gorgeous! :D :D

[Nachtstern]

Nachtstern, while you are entitled to your opinions, so are other members.

This is a forum based on respect and is a dog loving community and that is the reason I am editing your post. It is coarse and not appropriate.

Sorry about that. However, what would you think if the majority of the public thought breeding white Dobermans was fun?

{ Edited by Doberman's for content }

Breed standards are set for a reason.

[Ceph]

All right...I think I need to take this piece by piece....first of all, BBS is a separate breed now and as a separate breed has a different standard…which allows long coats…which I imagine is very useful in the Alps (we have a house there…it gets quite cold.) Added to that they arent bred back to the GSD so it has no affect on the GSD.

I do want to help improve the breed…the BBS…I believe that for some dogs the temperment and working drive needs to be worked on. I also think that people need to work harder on mainting genetics than they do…though many of the breeders have spoken to will not breed their dogs unless they are sound….I have been impressed with that.

I don’t plan on breeding until I know for sure that the stock I choose is sound…and by that I mean genetically, tempermentally and structurally. The long stock coat is also water resistant, the outercoat is just longer…the long coat on the other hand lacks the undercoat and is not...that particular coated dog I would not breed because it is not within the BBS breed standard and is not weatherproof at all.

The breed standard used to accept whites, blues (a blue even became a ch. before it became a fault) and livers if I recall. It wasn’t until 1935 that the white coat color was removed. Additionally, I have a couple of articles on the GSD that predate this time and I see whites throughout the pages working as protection dogs…one example is Anne Tracy’s “The Origin of the German Shepherd Dog” published in I believe 1924 in Volume 15 of the Journal of Heredity.

Genetically I believe it might just be impossible for the Golden retriver to get any other color (if bred to another golden), Now if there are spots that is considered a fault. However, with the GSD they have a much wider set of Loci controlling their color. However, what if I want to breed a SAR dog…or a guide or service dogs. White or light color dogs do a lot better in these because they are more visible. I see whites in SAR training all the time.

Long coated breeders and white breeders should not be generalized as BYBs…I know some may be but certainly not all. Many white breeders and longcoated breeders do more to test their dogs for genetic problems than most. The Swiss are an example of this…I would like to see anyone do as much testing on their dogs as they do the BBS.

No, you are right…a white dog was not used to create the breed, though I am sure in the earlier years you will find several of Horand’s children grandchildren who were white, since he is the source of the white color in the breed…and I am sure several white children and grandchildren were bred. Hec…you even see a couple of brindles.

In the AKC they were shown until 1968…I have articles that prove that…they were shown in the SV until 1935….which was right around the time the Captain relinquished his control of the SV I believe.

Your right about the white color…it wasn’t bred for specifically, but neither was it not bred for…it wasn’t the horrible thing it is considered by many today. Whites do not have any less drive to work…and they have shown that at Herding Trials, in their work in SAR and as I have seen overseas in Sch training…several of the studs in the BBS registries have those titles.

I don’t know that they were unacceptable…they certainly seemed common in the breed…perhaps they showed up more in working groups? That’s what my 1924 article seems to suggest.

Now I guess for my closing statement – the German Shepherd breed is one of the most variant dogs I have ever seen. I came in knowing only about whites…and recently found myself looking at the GSD. I mean goodness…there is an American showline, German Showline, German Workingline, English Alsatian type, DDRs, Czeck lines, and I am sure more than even that. Each has a different standard and each has a vastly different look…and most of these standards look nothing like what the Captain wanted. Clearly standards change based on preference…

I plan on breeding the BBS no matter what others think of them…because I love them and I want to be a member of those who work hard to make the White breed a sound, healthy and well adjusted breed of dog. I also plan on breeding the GSD…though I will breed DDR lines which don’t fall under any of the standards currently written (not ther German roach back nor the American angulation). I think they are probably the closest to what the Captain wanted and I personally think they are the most attractive and have some of the best temperment…now a lot of showline people hate them because they are bred more for temperment and drive than for conformation…does that make them better or worse…no…it just makes them.

I understand that everyone has their own views, and I respect that you don’t like mine. But the white arent going to affect the GSD breed standard because they follow their own standard…its that standard and that type that I want to help…and DDRs I will breed more for Sch, police and military work...I will *not* be a BYB or puppy mill, I will breed for better conformation, better temperment, better working ability and better genetics…and if my dogs don’t produce that I will retire them from breeding to pets and start again from scratch…I don’t think that’s wrong…I just think it is what works for me.

[skunkstripe]

Nachtstern, "breed standards" are not an act of nature, they were created by humans. As such there can be good and sound reason to deliberately breed against them. There are certainly enough breed clubs in the US who worked long and hard to fight recognition of "their" breeds by the AKC (for example Border Collies and JRTs) because they feared for what would happen when breeders start having to conform to an AKC standard.

As such the statement that anyone who breeds against a set standard is a BYB is simply not true, it is an opinion.

[borzoimom]

A white doberman is an albino- hardly the same thing in the white shepherds as the shepherd white color was there from the start-. While the color may not be accept in the AKC, that doesnt mean its not part of the breed. If only dogs recognized in the AKC were the " only breeds" than how can you say a Leo for example is not set in a "standard".. Rare breeds are just that, subject to their standard.. The color preference of colored shepherds also was set more in stone by " Rin Tin Tin"- who as anyone knows- was one of the worst examples of the breed.. Same reason why sables are prefered in collies, and while the merles for example are accepted in the AKC, the fact is- it takes and awfullllly good merle to beat a sable..
When breeding, first you start with a good pedigree, then a sound puppy- on both sounds. ( sound meaning genetically clear of breed defects, good temperment etc..). You can have a good "clean " dog for example, excellent pedigree, but the dog itself, to better the breed, could use improvement or betterment- now uh.. well.. uh.. isnt that the reason for breeding? Get the other things in place, to better the breed?

[borzoimom]

Nachtstern, "breed standards" are not an act of nature, they were created by humans. As such there can be good and sound reason to deliberately breed against them. There are certainly enough breed clubs in the US who worked long and hard to fight recognition of "their" breeds by the AKC (for example Border Collies and JRTs) because they feared for what would happen when breeders start having to conform to an AKC standard.

As such the statement that anyone who breeds against a set standard is a BYB is simply not true, it is an opinion.
BINGO.. and well said as created by humans... In Cavaliers for example, the club worked hard to insure hearts-.. Few people in the club wanted the breed recognized. The breed got " high- jacked" and now heart problems run so rampant in the breed, - I am sure all the original owners are rolling over in total fear of their breed being " ruined"... To get the 'standard" of a square type head in the bulldog, now all the mothers have to have C sections to deliver the pups- to get toys under like 5 pounds, with small litters, most toys need one too- allllllllllll because of " the set standard". Having a " set standard" is not always a good thing- .. The long backs in the " standard" shepherd, with little muscle mass under it, have put shepherds at the top of the list for dsyplasia- andddddddd.. " collie eye" is a random medical term that encompases all the eye problems because to get these " sweet expersion faces, narrow heads " etc- you will rarely find a " show quality normal eyed collie " anymore...

[Ceph]

BINGO.. and well said as created by humans... In Cavaliers for example, the club worked hard to insure hearts-.. Few people in the club wanted the breed recognized. The breed got " high- jacked" and now heart problems run so rampant in the breed, - I am sure all the original owners are rolling over in total fear of their breed being " ruined"... To get the 'standard" of a square type head in the bulldog, now all the mothers have to have C sections to deliver the pups- to get toys under like 5 pounds, with small litters, most toys need one too- allllllllllll because of " the set standard". Having a " set standard" is not always a good thing- .. The long backs in the " standard" shepherd, with little muscle mass under it, have put shepherds at the top of the list for dsyplasia- andddddddd.. " collie eye" is a random medical term that encompases all the eye problems because to get these " sweet expersion faces, narrow heads " etc- you will rarely find a " show quality normal eyed collie " anymore...


And that is also a very good point :)

[Nachtstern]

Nachtstern, "breed standards" are not an act of nature, they were created by humans. As such there can be good and sound reason to deliberately breed against them. There are certainly enough breed clubs in the US who worked long and hard to fight recognition of "their" breeds by the AKC (for example Border Collies and JRTs) because they feared for what would happen when breeders start having to conform to an AKC standard.

As such the statement that anyone who breeds against a set standard is a BYB is simply not true, it is an opinion.

Skunkstripe, breeds are not an act of nature, they were created by humans. When you have a breed who's standard was written before the breed was ever created, it means more to go against it than a breed who's standard was written after or with the developement. One such case is the German Shepherd Dog, who's standard was written before the SV was ever created in 1899. I am not speaking of the AKC standard--I am speaking of Stephanitz's standard; the original SV standard. The standard that came before the breed as a blueprint for what to breed.

Stephanitz worked long and hard to better his breed. As I said before, first and foremost came utility and intelligence--only after that came conformation to the standard. If you look into GSD history, GSDs were inbred and linebred-very rarely outcrossed-to create a consistant, standardized dog. After his death came the downfall of the breed. The only line that remains of the structure and temperament Stephanitz wanted is East German (DDR.) Even the SV does the breed harm nowadays. Look at the VA1 Siegerschau winners for the past 4 years.

Just because the Swiss, the FCI, and even you (Ceph) want to claim that a white German Shepherd is in fact a different breed doesn't mean it is. This means the standard is the same as it is (a better word-was) for the German Shepherd Dog.

Also, you mentioned something about the plush coats and cold climates. A plush coat allows more air through. The harsh stock coat was bred to protect from cold and warm climates. The plush coated German Shepherd's hair is not coarse as it should be. If you feel a properly bred Siberian or Malamute, it's coat is hard. That is cold-resistant. The plush German Shepherd's coat is not cold-resistant; in fact, it is less cold-resistant than the stock coat.

Just because someone tests their dogs more than a breeder who breeds dogs that conform to the standard doesn't mean they aren't a BackYard Breeder. A BYB is someone who breeds anything that is not correct as it doesn't help the breed, it drags it down. Any dog with a major fault should not be bred as there are many non-faulted dogs who can take their place in becoming a mother or a father. A Breeder breeds only the best stock--a BYB breeds to the standard they wish to breed to.

Borzoimom, you mentioned something about the standard AND the long, sloping backs. However, the AKC standard for this breed isn't even low enough to endorse that.

Topline-- The withers are higher than and sloping into the level back. The back is straight, very strongly developed without sag or roach, and relatively short.
Quoted directly from the American Kennel Club breed standard.

[Ceph]

A back yard breeder in my opinion is someone who breeds for money...someone who breeds dogs add nothing whatsoever. (But that is again my opinion.)

And again I do wonder....why does it even matter when these dogs arent bred back to the GSD or even affecting the GSD? When I saw my first BBS in switzerland two years ago we didnt even realize it was related to the GSD...in a few years most people wont....so again...why does it matter? I am going to breed to standard...to the BBS standard which is a far cry different from the GSD...has been different for several years now...and I will breed DDRs to standard as well..to the standard of a working GSD...but surely not to show standards.

And one last question...if the standard does the breed harm (and both the SV and American standards are 100% different than Horand, Hektor and Beowulf)...then why is it what we should go by? DDRs certainly arent structurally correct in most cases...some have earned their Vs but not many.

When I visit switzerland I see more longcoated dogs also....and this is on the mountain (crans montana to be exact, in Valaisanne)...that must mean something about the longcoats is working out all right.

I think you should take into mind that working border collies are not to standard...that American GSDs, German Work lines, Alsatians and DDRs are not to the German Standard...does that make them all BYBs? I think not.

[Nachtstern]

A back yard breeder in my opinion is someone who breeds for money...someone who breeds dogs add nothing whatsoever.

And again I do wonder....why does it even matter when these dogs arent bred back to the GSD or even affecting the GSD? When I saw my first BBS in switzerland two years ago we didnt even realize it was related to the GSD...in a few years most people wont....so again...why does it matter? I am going to breed to standard...to the BBS standard which is different from the GSD...has been different for several years now...and I will breed DDRs to standard as well..to the standard of a working GSD...but surely not to show standards.

And one last question...if the standard does the breed harm (and both the SV and American standards are 100% different than Horand, Hektor and Beowulf)...then why is it what we should go by? DDRs certainly arent structurally correct in most cases...some have earned their Vs but not many.

I think you should take into mind that working border collies are not to standard...that American GSDs, German Work lines, Alsatians and DDRs are not to the German Standard...does that make them all BYBs? I think not.

There is no definition of BackYard Breeder, it's simply a term used by people who love dogs so we are both correct in our understanding. I just see it as a classification of the breeders who aren't up to my standard (such as those who breed against the standard.) Saying such, nobody is actually a BYB, it's a person's opinion on them that makes them a BYB.

I don't believe people should breed to the breed standard given by AKC, the FCI, the UKC, or the SV. I believe they should breed to the old/original SV standard (I have the document but it's in German and I have a hard time translating things directly.)

The reason that breeding "BBS" and "WGSD" bothers me, even though they will not be bred back to the GSD, is because of history and the trouble that one man went through to create a breed. Most breeds don't have a history like the GSD's--a group of people created them, creating a standard as they went. The GSD started with a standard it should still have today. Going against it, even if you're calling it something else, is going against the history of someone who lived for GSDs. It wouldn't matter so much to me if he hadn't made a comment on his breed on his death bed. I just see going against Stephanitz's standard as going against his death wish and he was an important person in history to me-if it weren't for him, I wouldn't ever know a dog who fit me as well as the GSD.

[Ceph]

I thought we might have a picture comparison of some of the dogs because as far as structure it sort of helps I believe.

http://www.nsgsdc.com/images/beowulf.jpg
Beowulf

http://www.sas-italia.com/images/horand.jpg
Horand

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/18/Berno_von_der_Seewiese.jpg
Berno v.d. Seewiese (1913)

http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/13_Breed_Type/german_working.JPG
German Working line

http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/13_Breed_Type/high_line.JPG
German Showline

http://www.vombanachk9.homestead.com/Grand_Stack.jpg
DDR Line

http://www.dogsgermanshepherd.com/Andretti%202nd.jpg
American Showline

[Ceph]

http://www.onewaits.com/awsaclub/awsachamps/storypix/awsachoscarpix.jpg
Ambred white shepherd

http://www.berger-blanc-international.com/deckrueden/pics/gadget.jpg
LH BBS

http://www.noflikstee.com/PICT0232.JPG
LH BBS

http://www.infor.nl/honden/images/berger.jpg
Berger Blanc Suisse

http://www.whiteshepherd.ee/admodule/uploads/images/AchieverEUJW06219.JPG
BBS

Now who looks like the standard that was Horand...who I believe was grey...which is also not a standard color these days.

If I were to pick based on structure I would say the last one on this post...the BBS, and also the Ambred at the top of this post.

From what I understand, the old standard accepted Whites...and most in the white community breed to that older standard (or at least try too) structurally...at least it looks like it up top...if I can achieve dogs that look like the above three I think I might be happy...many of these dogs are excellent herd dogs...and several do sch...I know many members of the AWSA put their dogs in herding trials.

I know my puppy wont be perfect...and if he or she is so imperfect that there are no redeeming factors in her for the White Shepherd, than I wont...but if he or she can bring something to the breed, and if there is a proper pairing that can improve on his or her faults, I certainly will.

Edit : None of these belong to me! Just borrowing...I claim no ownership.

And I forgot one other thing...are you confusing long stock coat with long coat? Cause they are two different things...the long stock coat has the same texture as the stock coat...the outer coat is just longer...long coat doesnt have an undercoat and is not weatherproof...I do believe there are alot of plush and long stock coats in DDRs as well). The Above DDR dog is a 'plush' which is a fuller version of the short coat...long stock has longer outercoat and long coat has no undercoat. The two LH are long stock coats, and the other whites in this are Short coats without the plush factor.

[borzoimom]

GREAT photos for illustration.. They are not casual photos- but rather show photos. All of us have casual photos that could be looked at oddly- that doesnt mean thats the real structure of the dog- hince the reason for making a " stack" universal in each breed- to easier compare the ones...This is what I mean. These pictures were taken a day apart- one is a casual stack the other is a show stack.. Same dog- but the dog is made to stand right..and pay attention.. lol..

[Nachtstern]

The DDR dog you showed is not a good example of the DDR type. This is a better example:


http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w58/nachtsterndsh/Line%20Comparison/nenaside329.jpg

The old standard wasn't written to compliment any dog of the time nor was it a description of any dog of the time. It was a blueprint of what the breed should be. Horand, as well as Beowulf and many others, were extremely high in the rear throwing off their topline badly. Horand was extremely wet and had a lot of dewlap. His legs were skinny and the bones in his hips pertruded like many sighthound's. Their angulation was horrible, front and rear. The point in betterment of the breed is not to remain with what you started but to improve upon the structure as said by the standard.

The dog posted above (Nina von der Kinzigau AD, BH, SchH1) has improved qualities while remaining nearly the same in overall structure. She fits the standard. She's got an awesome head, sloping croup, flat back, wonderful shoulders, excellent angulation front and rear, great pastern angles, and good coloring. She has also proven that she has correct temperament and work drives.

All of the white GSDs you showed have bad ear set except for (and this is only a possibility since I can't really see it) the second "Berger Blanc Suisse." However, that is all I can say STRUCTURALLY other than that the color is a huge fault to the breed.

Horand was Gray Sable, an accepted and extremely popular in GSDs today, not Gray.

[Nachtstern]

Also, I am not confusing stock coat with long coat. Stock coat is the short, hard, weather resistant coat. Long Stock coat, what the DDR you showed has (not plush) is the long, hard, weather resistant coat. Plush is a long coat without an under coat which gives the dog a "fluffy" look and long coat is a softer long coat with an undercoat.

[Doberman's]

This thread is now going in circles. Closing.