Cropping and the Show Ring

[Areias]

I'm just a little curious about this. I hope (in a far off land..) in the next 1-3 years to be able to purchase a house...and after I purchase my house, I want (and have always wanted) a show-quality Doberman to start competing in conformation, obedience, or whatever I can get into and then go from there. I really don't mind docking...I've done it myself (under the supervision of a vet) but I am not fond of cropping.

Now I know it wouldn't be a problem as far as the sports are concerned...but what about conformation? I believe...although I'm not sure...that you don't have to crop in AKC, but it is expected. How much harder would it be to go into the ring with a natural eared Dobe? Or any normally cropped breeds? I'm not sure if I am willing to put a dog through the pain of ear cropping for some ribbons and a champion in front of it's name. :thinking:

Any thoughts? If this turns into a debate, please keep it friendly. :) I'm merely curious, things can change a lot in a few years.

[Jake2006]

Borzoi/Lassie and other's who are more in the know will be able to offer advice re. English KC - and Crufts. HOwever, you cannot enter a dog competition in the UK who has been cropped after April 2007 - so it rather depends upon where you want to show your Dobe. I guess this law will extend universally in time.

I did notice though that there were zillions of dogs at crufts this year from some european countries where it is illegal to crop.

Depends where you want to show really.

Any pictures to show us please?

[GitSol]

I'm afraid I'm not sure what the rules are in America but I would be interested to find out...

Here in the UK it is already illegal to crop and a tail docking ban is coming into force next month. Times are a-changing!

[RagTyme Boxers]

I do not know about Dobe's as I have Boxers. Where Boxers are concerned, the most recent standard revision included a description of the uncropped ear.

Ears: Set at the highest points of the sides of the skull, the ears are customarily cropped, cut rather long and tapering, and raised when alert. If uncropped, the ears should be of moderate size, thin, lying flat and close to the cheeks in repose, but falling forward with a definite crease when alert.


It is still a bit more difficult to finish an uncropped ear and takes a little longer. Their are still judges out their that will not put up an uncropped dog, no it is not fair, but it happens. However, I am seeing more and more in the ring, and IMO as more breeders choose to show their dogs/bitches uncropped the tides will change and it will become easier. Eventually, uncropped or cropped will get the same amount of consideration.

[skunkstripe]

My understanding is that the AKC does not require cropping, but considers it "an acceptable practice integral to defining and preserving breed character and/or enhancing good health." It is also my understanding that AKC judges in the US tend to favor dogs with an appearance that they are used to.
That said it should be noted that there are moves afoot to make cropping and docking illegal, among other places in my own home state of Vermont.
http://www.akc.org/news/index.cfm?article_id=2725
For now the bill seems to be dead but it is only a matter of time until it passes IMO.

[Doberman's]

The Breeder of your Dobe will most likely have your Dobe cropped before you even see it for the first time. Most show breeders of Doberman's crop thier pups. My Dobe Rudy was cropped before we purchased him by his breeder's Vet.

To be honest with you, you will do better in the AKC rshow riungs if your dog is cropped. Comformation showing is like a beauty pagent and cropped Doberman's just look better ( of course that is my opnion but it is also the opnion of most judges in the AKC and Canadian Kennel club ).

When I had time I use to go to a fair number of shows and you will see that most Dobeman's showing probably 99% are cropped. Nearly 100% of the time a cropped Dobe will win the class.

I wish people would get thier facts straight on cropping, it is not what people make it out to be, in my honest humble opinion. I have had all my Dobes cropped ( except Jenna she is a rescue ) and they suffered no ill effects from cropping. I went through all the posting and taping, the only discomfort they feel is right after the surgery and it is very little, they play and do everything a non-cropped pup would do. The stitches come out after 7-10 days , the ears are fully healed at that point and then you just need to post the ears for the next few weeks.

I have very good article on the posting and cropping if you would like to read it I can post it for you.

[Mahooli]

If you truely do not like cropping then go with your heart. You will not feel any sense of achievement in buying a puppy with cropped ears just for the show ring if in your heart of hearts you don't agree with it. If it takes you longer to get your title then so be it. You;re the one that has to live with your decision no one else. If winning is all that is important to you then don't get any animal for show.
Becky

[Jake2006]

With the greatest of respect hasn't the 'cropping' ears and tails been done and done on Dogforum.org. Everyone has their own opinions and for every article one member posts another can post to counter the argument.

I have zillions of veterinary articles stating that tail and ear cropping is cruel and a mutilation - I've tried to force my opinions on people and it doesn't work because we all have our own personal views. Its like religion - you can't force your beliefs on another.

Can we just keep the thread to the original poster's queries regarding showing, etc., it will save arguments and respect others opinions. As most people know I am against docking and cropping but that is my opinion and I respect those own want to have their dogs cropped or docked. I am willing to post but not if it gets into another argument and we all put our fingers into gear before thinking of other's views and upset other members.

I hope this makes sense and I don't want to offend anyone.

[Doberman's]

Thanks Carole.

I see no other references to anything other then what the OP asked for. :)

[vagreys]

...Now I know it wouldn't be a problem as far as the sports are concerned...but what about conformation? I believe...although I'm not sure...that you don't have to crop in AKC, but it is expected. How much harder would it be to go into the ring with a natural eared Dobe? Or any normally cropped breeds? I'm not sure if I am willing to put a dog through the pain of ear cropping for some ribbons and a champion in front of it's name. :thinking:

Any thoughts? If this turns into a debate, please keep it friendly. :) I'm merely curious, things can change a lot in a few years.
From the DPCA Judges' Education website:

Ears are normally cropped and carried erect. “Normally cropped” means cropped in a normal manner. Normally cropped does not mean “usually cropped.” Cropped ears will always be carried erect on a fully mature Doberman. The upper attachment of the ear to the head should be level with the top of the backskull when the dog is alert. The shape of cropped ears can vary because veterinarians exert their own vision on the final shape...From his inception, the Doberman has been cropped. It is an essential breed characteristic. Cropped ears impart an appearance of alertness, determination, and watchfulness, and they aid in multi-directional hearing. In our standard, we do not describe an uncropped ear because this is a cropped breed. Dobermans with uncropped ears deviate from the standard twice — first by not having cropped ears, as required by the standard, and second by not having an erect ear carriage.

http://www.dpca.org/JEC/illustrated_standard/Head/head.htm

[golden-lover]

I prefer the natural ears (They just adorable on dobes!), but it would probably hinder you in the US. A few brave owners do compete though, and do very well.

[BratBoxers]

I agree with Doberman's it is not cruel nor mutilation and they are not in pain. Until you own a breed that you personally have had cropped or docked you would never know truly how they feel or don't feel.

In the boxer breed here in the US they must be docked or they will be penalized cropping the ears is just a personal choice now but they are harder to Finnish with unclipped ears and they have a totally different look IMO. I will dock and crop as long as it is legal. It is the history of these breeds and I would never want to loose it JMO.

[Doberman's]

Vagreys that was a wonderful article to post. The DPCA has some awesome info on it's website I refer to it quite often.:)

[vagreys]

... The DPCA has some awesome info on it's website I refer to it quite often.:)
Thanks. Yes, I was very impressed with the site. I wish other clubs offered as much information about judging the standard.

[borzoimom]

I'm just a little curious about this. I hope (in a far off land..) in the next 1-3 years to be able to purchase a house...and after I purchase my house, I want (and have always wanted) a show-quality Doberman to start competing in conformation, obedience, or whatever I can get into and then go from there. I really don't mind docking...I've done it myself (under the supervision of a vet) but I am not fond of cropping.

Now I know it wouldn't be a problem as far as the sports are concerned...but what about conformation? I believe...although I'm not sure...that you don't have to crop in AKC, but it is expected. How much harder would it be to go into the ring with a natural eared Dobe? Or any normally cropped breeds? I'm not sure if I am willing to put a dog through the pain of ear cropping for some ribbons and a champion in front of it's name. :thinking:

Any thoughts? If this turns into a debate, please keep it friendly. :) I'm merely curious, things can change a lot in a few years.
Okay- it is now acceptable to have a natural ear doberman. You have every reason to be concerned- the transition in cropping to ears healed is a hard one- and done at puppyhood when people should be the good guy- not the bad guy for changing bandages.
I have met many dobes with natural ears - that have done well in the show ring obviously. ( you know my experience).
when you get a puppy look at the ears. They should have a 'neat' fold- you can see what I mean on most dobie sites etc. Its really obvious.
With your dedication to showing, I am sure you will find a good breeder. Tell them ahead of time you want natural ears- they will help you pick out your pup. Not all pups can go natural.
The myth of ears done winning over natural is really fading in the US. Judges- will take the same in the appearance of the head now- as long as the muzzle is like a wedge etc with a nice lay back ( ie the neck to shoulder) etc. As long as the rest is in place- ie the structure- the shoulders etc is in place- judges will take a uncropped ear.. I can tell you for a fact areias- as you know.

[Areias]

Thanks for the input guys...I'll have to think about it. I know I do prefer uncropped ears, hands down. I've seen a boxer puppy's ears get infected..I don't know. I've still got a long ways to go before I even think about getting the puppy...I was just curious about this. Hmmm...*wanders off pondering*

[vagreys]

Okay- it is now acceptable to have a natural ear doberman...I have met many dobes with natural ears - that have done well in the show ring obviously. ( you know my experience).
when you get a puppy look at the ears. They should have a 'neat' fold- you can see what I mean on most dobie sites etc. Its really obvious...The myth of ears done winning over natural is really fading in the US. Judges- will take the same in the appearance of the head now- as long as the muzzle is like a wedge etc with a nice lay back ( ie the neck to shoulder) etc. As long as the rest is in place- ie the structure- the shoulders etc is in place- judges will take a uncropped ear...
The breed standard and guidance for judges published by the national breed club for AKC-registered Dobermans does not provide for a natural ear, and is explicit about a natural ear constituting two faults. If a natural ear were acceptable for conformation to the breed standard, wouldn't the breed standard indicate that, as does the breed standard for Boxers?

[borzoimom]

To quote from AKC standard. " http://www.akc.org/breeds/doberman_pinscher/index.cfm "..Ears normally cropped and carried erect. The upper attachment of the ear, when held erect, is on a level with the top of the skull."
While normally cropped, it does state how the ear carriage looks at the skull of ' upper attachment of the ear, when held erect, is on a level with the top of the skull".
There are several top winning Dobermans shown with natural ears ( I can not post their website). However- they ear carriage still has to be right in how the attach to the head.
I had two dobies that had cropped ears. Both done at a young age. One was a piece of cake- the other was a mess. Although they did stand straight- getting there was trouble.
I will admit- I like the look of a cropped ear. If you read the standard, this is another breed that description words are use subject to interputation. Like in my breed- the words 'regel" what it means to me and what I might mean to someon else, is, as said- subject to interputation.

[vagreys]

To quote from AKC standard. " http://www.akc.org/breeds/doberman_pinscher/index.cfm "..Ears normally cropped and carried erect. The upper attachment of the ear, when held erect, is on a level with the top of the skull."
While normally cropped, it does state how the ear carriage looks at the skull of ' upper attachment of the ear, when held erect, is on a level with the top of the skull"...If you read the standard, this is another breed that description words are use subject to interputation. Like in my breed- the words 'regel" what it means to me and what I might mean to someon else, is, as said- subject to interputation.
The national breed club instruction showing judges how to interpret the standard, quoted in post #10 on this thread, doesn't seem to be ambiguous. Are you suggesting that judging practice in the ring directly contradicts explicit statements in the judging guidelines from the national breed club for the registry?

I certainly understand the original poster's confusion. I'm having a hard time reconciling your statement that [uncropped ears are] now acceptable with the national club's statement that "...In our standard, we do not describe an uncropped ear because this is a cropped breed. Dobermans with uncropped ears deviate from the standard twice — first by not having cropped ears, as required by the standard, and second by not having an erect ear carriage."

[borzoimom]

There are several uncropped dobies that have done VERY well in the breed. Even one in the top 10. If the carriage is right off the skull, you can keep uncropped. However- this is hard to tell at puppy stage- when the operations would be done.

[Spicy_VV]

You can show them it just might be harder to place. The Am Staff standard says that natural is preferred but that is FAR from true. Cropped is obviously preferred by the judges because it is much harder to finish a natural dog. I really see no reason to crop these shows dog at all. It is just personal preference if you don't want to do it I just wouldn't and still compete. Cropping/docking serve the working dog protection and prevention from injury, but a show dog nothing so if you don't like it don't sweat it. To each his own.

[mermaid2708]

I'm afraid I'm not sure what the rules are in America but I would be interested to find out...

Here in the UK it is already illegal to crop and a tail docking ban is coming into force next month. Times are a-changing!

i think you will find that docking became illegal in UK in april 2007. so any dog born since then that has been docked, with the exception of working dogs who have a certificate, will not be allowed to 'show'.

[Wahoo]

Eventually the AKC standards will change on this issue for every cropped or docked breed. I would suggest finding a good breeder who is very knowledgeable, experienced and willing to mentor you, with your preferences in mind.

On a related note:
I was completely shocked last night to see the National Championship dog show. I love (American) Cocker Spaniels, particularly the buff. When the ASCOB dog was put up on the table, I about fell off my chair when I realized he has a natural tail. This was the first time I'd seen one on a show dog, let alone a Breed winner. He was stunning. The tail might take a bit to adjust to but...I like it. (I did note the dog was bred in Europe, which explains the presence of the whole tail) All this to say- times are a changin'. I hope the AKC allows both cropped/docked and natural.

[mermaid2708]

Eventually the AKC standards will change on this issue for every cropped or docked breed. I would suggest finding a good breeder who is very knowledgeable, experienced and willing to mentor you, with your preferences in mind.

On a related note:
I was completely shocked last night to see the National Championship dog show. I love (American) Cocker Spaniels, particularly the buff. When the ASCOB dog was put up on the table, I about fell off my chair when I realized he has a natural tail. This was the first time I'd seen one on a show dog, let alone a Breed winner. He was stunning. The tail might take a bit to adjust to but...I like it. (I did note the dog was bred in Europe, which explains the presence of the whole tail) All this to say- times are a changin'. I hope the AKC allows both cropped/docked and natural.

glad you liked the look of the cocker with its tail as nature intended!!! ruby has her tail, she was born just before the ban was brought in here in the uk last year...but i asked the breeder not to have her docked. lots of people commented on how 'weired' she looked at first, especially fellow cocker owners...but i would not have her any other way!!!:)

[Wahoo]

glad you liked the look of the cocker with its tail as nature intended!!! ruby has her tail, she was born just before the ban was brought in here in the uk last year...but i asked the breeder not to have her docked. lots of people commented on how 'weired' she looked at first, especially fellow cocker owners...but i would not have her any other way!!!:)

Haha- I can't say it was EXACTLY as nature intended...it was shaved. It certainly caught my eye either way. I think it speaks volumes that the dog beat all the other ASCOBs entered at such a presitious event. I'm wondering if I will see him again at our Westminster show.

Ruby is lovely. She's a fine example of why owners should be able to choose whether or not they wish to crop or dock. Myself, I have taken a fancy to the very natural Alaskan Malamute. It would be appalling to consider... :eek: