Is this true? GSDs are bred properly overseas and not in USA?

[MyDogShelby]

Okay, a lot of you may be stunned by what I heard...but I need to know if it is true or not...I want some feedback.

I went to a PetSmart yesterday...one we don't normally go to, and it was a lovely store :) As we entered the store, the first thing we saw was an adorable 10 week old German Shepherd puppy attached to a father and his daughter.

We chatted for a bit, and during our conversation, we asked him if he got him from a breeder. He said yes, and that the parents had European bloodlines. He said that the dogs bred in the USA have the "slanted" back for show. Meaning people who show their GSD's, breed them that way so the dog looks good in the show ring. I can believe that because I see no other purpose for it to have a slanted back.
This guy said a straight back is what the GSD should have, and that is how they are bred overseas. The GSD's in the USA will most likely have hip dysplasia because of their slanted back.

So what are your opinions on this? I know sheplovr is a GSD breeder so hopefully she will jump in on this and offer her opinion....and Ceph is getting a White GSD and the mother dog, Daisy, has European bloodlines.

I want some opinions from both sides :)

[skunkstripe]

Before this gets going let me please remind everyone to keep it respectful.

[golden-lover]

Really, I don't like dogs who sit on their hocks. Todays GSD's have almost have no resemblence to the first GSDs.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/picturegallery.image?id=4
Horand vom Grafrath and Mari vom Grafrath, the first two German Shepherds ever registered with the Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde. Meaning first ever registered, purebred, GSDs.

German line-german shepherds resemble them much more closely.

[golden&hovawart]

Yes,The French and German GSD don't have a back that is as low to the ground as the American,show GSD.
My preference is for the working GSD because i don't like the sloppy back that showdogs have but that's personel preference.

[Mahooli]

The breed standard here in the UK calls for a straight back but fashions tend to dictate what happens to breeds. I don't like the over exaggerated GSD's you see and I also don't like the stance they are supposed to take in the show ring, dogs should stand 4 square.
Becky

[borzoimom]

The properly bred shepherd, has to be trained to do this stack as they have a muscled rear and a flying gate. Whether European or US- you can still have badly bred dogs. The rear is supposed to be very strong, propelling the front without crossing the path of the front feet. The longer back is for more fluid movement and agility. Able to trot 'all day" but powerful enough, and long enough, to clear a 6 foot fence ... The shepherd is supposed to be a multi useful dog.. In all directions.

[borzoimom]

This is how you train a shepherd to stack. With all 4 legs standing straight, with your right hand, you support the rib cage- with the left hand, you pull the back foot back. With a young dog or an unexperienced one- this hand position will balence the dog, until the dog is use to how to keep the right back leg as the " post" that holds the dog... The front legs are forward slightly, making the dog more forward in the front, which shows the length of the back. No part of the dog should appear " not powerful" and fluid- that does not mean weak in the rear. The legs, knees, and elbows need to be strong- not "whimpy.."

[MyDogShelby]

Borzoimom - so the slanted stance is for better agility and movement, to make the GSD a multi-purpose kind of breed? Okay, but what about the hip dysplasia that is common to GSD's...does a slanted back add to the probability of a GSD getting that disease? I am curious. Since the disease is common to large breeds, especially the GSD.

Thank you all for posting your opinions and information on this topic. I look forward to reading replies from more members :)

[borzoimom]

Borzoimom - so the slanted stance is for better agility and movement, to make the GSD a multi-purpose kind of breed? Okay, but what about the hip dysplasia that is common to GSD's...does a slanted back add to the probability of a GSD getting that disease? I am curious. Since the disease is common to large breeds, especially the GSD.

Thank you all for posting your opinions and information on this topic. I look forward to reading replies from more members :)

Yes it is- the problem is - breeders to get that " look" do not always look at what it takes for this to occur. Allowing a looseness in the joints, lack of muscle etc.. A properly build shepherd- looks like a power house of agility, fluid in movement, with a strong drive in the rear and strength the front . The back has to be long enough to cover ground, but the structure of the dog, strong enough to support the flying gate. With all 4 legs under the dog, there should be no roach. A roach is stress on the spinal cord. The dog should have a flat back, with only appearing a slant with the rear leg pulled out- making a 3 point contact.

[borzoimom]

HD comes into play when the joints are not supported in the socket, and the bones are too narrow for a fit into the socket. Real breeders-- ( leaving that alone) looks at the whole dog, and OFA allllllll stock- accepting nothing but " good" or better. I had one female that was a fair- beautiful dog- but you do not weaken the strength of a multi use dog by making one part weaker.. Its just NOT done..

[Ceph]

I thought I would put a couple of my own cents in here. And I apologize if this doesnt make a whole lot of sense....I had foal watch last night from 8pm to 6 am this morning.

The breed standard of the GSD is a very fluid thing...and I have noticed quite a points of contention for many people. The Ambred dogs tend to sit at an angle while the European bred dogs with the exception of some of the DDRs tend to have a roach in their back. The origincal shepherds had straight as arrow backs. Here is a little bit of a comparison that I put up for another thread that I thought ya'll might find interesting.


http://www.nsgsdc.com/images/beowulf.jpg
Beowulf

http://www.sas-italia.com/images/horand.jpg
Horand

http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/13_Breed_Type/german_working.JPG
German Working line

http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/13_Breed_Type/high_line.JPG
German Showline (Highline)

http://www.evermoreshepherds.com/web-Mya%204-1-06%20stand.jpg
http://www.vombanachk9.homestead.com/Grand_Stack.jpg
DDR Lines

http://www.pupcity.com/images/adpics/06311041714317_1.jpg
http://www.covy-tuckerhill.com/ManhattanStack.jpg
American Showline (#2 is beautful if you ask me....his name is Ch. Covy Tucker Hill's Manhattan)

Now - here's my input on the whole thing. The American breeders say that the roach leads European dogs (working and showline) to have a weaker back in terms of long run problems like Cauda Equina and HD. Workingline breeders think Showline breeders breed useless dogs, and Highline breeders think that the American angle makes for a unbalanced dog when trotting. The DDR's think that all of them are silly because their dogs are probably the most work oriented but they are in general the least conformationally correct of the bunch.

In my honost opinion? I dont think it really matters. The GSD is very open to interpretation these days. It just really depends on what you like. Some American dogs are not bred well...and that is true...some of them excel at SchH. But it is equally true that just as many European dogs can have major problems. Basically it is a preferance, and a persons own truth (a truth is what you believe....facts are things like the sky is blue...being ill bred is an opinion more than anything.) There is not facts that any type is better than the other...they all have their bad and their good.

When it comes to GSDs I tend to prefer DDRs conformationally (even though I am in love with Ambred GSD #2)...they are more old style and have a similiar conformation to whites. Alot of them are leggier and have straighter backs...but they also dont worry about conformation nearly as much as drive. I dont like the roach at all personally...and I dont like Ambreds like #1...I think that looks silly too....but I think #2 is drop dead gorgeous. Again...a matter of opinion.

Now here is one thing that is a major problem with these dogs (GSDs)...and its not just Americans or Germans, but the whole GSD community in general. They worry too much about silly things like looks when there are bigger issues like genetics being swept under the table. There is this tendency to keep hushhush about problems in litters so carriers end up going unnoticed...the puppies are PTS and then everything is good in the world with the rest of the litter. I see it more in the GSD than in the BBS (because of the genetics project...lol, I was reading another messageboard and one woman who bred Eurolines was trying to start one for the GSD and said it was like pulling teeth...the whites share info more readily...but not in all cases). However I have seen cases in the BBS where people do this and am unfortunatley finding out more about it now.

I dont know...I think it is just really silly to worry about something like that when we have problems like MegaE, HD, ED, Epi, and MDR1. Maybe when we get done with those we can worry about the more superficial stuff. As far as HD (which is the GSD plague) in American reputable breeders will OFA their dogs and like Bmom said only take and breed good or better. It is the same in the white community in the states. In Europe it is okay to breed fair to borderline hips. However...I think there are far less reputable breeders in the States than there are in Europe (by this I mean I think there are more BYBs here)

And as far as Daisy being Eurobred...this is kinda silly on my part...but I didnt realize until much later that the BBS was the White German Shepherd (The long coat threw me off), and by then I had already chosen my breeder :p Not only that though, but I really like my puppy's pedigree...but believe me...there are plenty of white dogs in the States that have wildly awsome pedigrees!

Like I said...its really a matter of opinion and something you need to decide on your own. Haha, I do think the captain would have a heart attack if he saw todays dogs...they are viery different from what he had envisioned.

Hope this helps :)

grrrr, stupid pictures not working all the time.....grrrrrr....

[borzoimom]

Ch.Covy Tucker Hills Manhatten ( hatter) was the sire of 3 of my litters. He had power, grace and strength..

[sheplovr]

You must remember that the German Shepherd was founded in Germany by Max von Stephanitz. Buying the imported lines can allow you to compete with only those at Seiger Shows not AKC. The American bred dogs have very weak steep croups that drop off so badly it weakens the rear for work and alot of play. Therefore breeding it totally different Am. lines and they do have alot of HD and other ailments. I am NOT saying HD does not happen in Germany or European countries, but far less. They take much pride in crossing and planning litters that match and produce healthy pups. The backs are somewhat roached or banana back for strength, Am. Shepherds are very straight, with steep dropped croups, therefore standing on their entire back legs to at least the hocks. U might notice the German bred stands on its feet only. In a stacked position the front rear leg to the camera is pulled back in a nice stance with front legs mostly close to dropping from the shoulder. The have a tremendous fast true gait entering the ring very hard to keep up with. Heads mostly low in entering they fly around the ring, stacked for confirmation and viewed by judge to choose what he/she likes.
I have had Am. bred dogs at first when I had horses and not one came healthy and with HD. I got so frustrated I reserched and decided going West German lines were much healthier, stronger, highly intelligent, less problems period. This is my personal opinion to breeding and owning the West German Bred Shepherds. There is alot more to say but toooo long. I could go on and on about this subject, but will quit now. Thanks for asking and making this good post.

[skunkstripe]

Could someone please define the term "roach"?

[Ceph]

Its that upwards angle you see on the two german bred dogs....lol...I dont know if its the PC word or not...but I have heard European breeders use the term so I dont think it is an insult....I hope...

Another less PC term is banana back....but that was used by a Eurobreeder also.

I dont think it is fair to say that most American dogs are bad. The European dogs have alot of lower level HD not only in working stock but also in their showlines (HD B I believe...not terrible...but that is our fair to borderline)....but they are allowed to by the SV. Alot of the good American breeders steer clear of this...even offer a health contract covering it. I believe if you do the research and find the right American Breeders than you willd find equally good dogs.

I was researching Covy-Tucker Hill Kennels and they go through the trouble to title their dogs...I know alot of awsome breeders that dont do this...but I think that those that do are worth an extra look.

Just remember that like with any dog, looking and researching and looking and researching some more is tantamount when choosing a breeder :)

[MyDogShelby]

Ceph, I want to thank you for posting all the info you did. You are so knowledgeable on GSD's...you are amazing ;)
I will have to read your post through again to really soak in all that info :)

Question: So there are GSD breeders in the USA that have straight back shepherds? Its not just an american thing?

A slanted back GSD, can it stand straight on all fours? or will the rear legs always have that "bend" in the knee?

[MyDogShelby]

I have had Am. bred dogs at first when I had horses and not one came healthy and with HD. I got so frustrated I reserched and decided going West German lines were much healthier, stronger, highly intelligent, less problems period. This is my personal opinion to breeding and owning the West German Bred Shepherds. There is alot more to say but toooo long. I could go on and on about this subject, but will quit now. Thanks for asking and making this good post.
Pat, thank you for posting :) I appreciate all the information everyone has submitted thus far :)

I never would of thought to ask this question, had we not bumped into that man yesterday with this GSD puppy...aww, you should have seen this little pup, he was too cute for words :wubsmiley: They only had him for 2 weeks, and already he was showing excellent progress in the "sit" and "lie down" command...the owner had a treat in his hand, but the dog listened, and it was pretty impressive to see such obedience from a young pup :)

[sheplovr]

Here is a good link similar to one on my site giving the information of the Foreign bred Shepherds.
http://www.kraftwerkk9.com/breed_standard.htm

[MyDogShelby]

Another question : I don't show dogs or compete in agility...so I guess you can consider our dogs to be "family pets". If I was going to buy a purebred GSD, should I be looking for one from a breeder that breeds "slant" or "straight"?
I think we would prefer straight...our GSD/Collie mix had a straight back.

[sheplovr]

Awww Shelby pups are all so sweet and hard to ignore honey. Thanks for posting and hope all is understood, we all have our own words used. I know Gino my male can scale a six foot wall with no effort at all is how strong his back and rear is. Gillion is working Agility powerful female she jumped so high and landed on her side so hard she bounced and we lost 5 pups, such nice pigment ones also. Made me ill. Vet checked her and did xrays and found her to be most healthy and the Germans did Inko as his sire is always booked full to total of 90 females. His mom is used and just whelped pups at Fermerick kennels in Germany.:D

[MyDogShelby]

Awww Shelby pups are all so sweet and hard to ignore honey. Thanks for posting and hope all is understood, we all have our own words used. I know Gino my male can scale a six foot wall with no effort at all is how strong his back and rear is. Gillion is working Agility powerful female she jumped so high and landed on her side so hard she bounced and we lost 5 pups, such nice pigment ones also. Made me ill. Vet checked her and did xrays and found her to be most healthy and the Germans did Inko as his sire is always booked full to total of 90 females. His mom is used and just whelped pups at Fermerick kennels in Germany.:D
I know that the better the bloodlines the higher you will pay for a pup. Is there a certain range one could expect to pay for a puppy one wants as a pet? I know that pricing can be determined by the breeders based on whether or not the dogs purpose is for 1) showing/competing 2) breeding or 3) family pet.

[Ceph]

You really just need to look at the breeding stock that is used. In general you are going to find Whites with straighter backs. DDRs have them too with certain breeders...but they have too much drive just to be a family pet....they need to work. I like Covy-Tucker Hill Kennels dogs...they breed sort of the more conservative Ambred dog that I think is gorgeous...but still has a weeeee bit more angle than the White Dogs are bred to have....their dogs also have some working drive :)

Really, you just need to look at the parents and the ancestors and talk to the breeders and look at their dogs...that way you get a better idea of what you are looking for.

Most breeders will sell their dogs in levels - pet quality is one...which is probably what you are looking for. These dogs are maybe not as conformationally correct and are sold at a lower price on a spay/neuter contract. They are not any worse mind or working wise in alot of the cases...they just may not make it in a show ring and may not be good for breeding

There is also show quality which is a higher price and can be shown and bred...and then pick...which are usually the puppies that end up as champions and they are the most expensive. These last two are usually not on spay/neuter contracts.

A good resouce is finding a breeder that breeds what you like and looking at their links. In alot of cases you will find more breeders that way. Bmom also will know a couple of breeders that might have something along the lines you are looking for :)

[skunkstripe]

MyDogShelby I apologisze if I am saying something you already know....
the stance of the show dogs ("stack") is different for GSDs than for most breeds. (Correct me if I am wrong you guys, I am trying to translate between show and non-show people). Borzoimom I think you posted it, but if you are not in the show scene it is difficult to really know what is involved in the stack otherwise.

I think that if an American bred GSD were to stand the same way that say, a Labrador is supposed to, (get your GSD to stack as if he were a Lab) that slant would not be nearly as pronounced.

Is this true?

[Ceph]

The GSD stack is a three point stack, with that front foot forward.

I think the GSD is the only one that does it though. With Ambreds it is partially what causes the angle...alot but not all will stand straighter when not in the stack. If you look at that front leg you can see how it is pushed closer to the ground.

Its not the most stable stack on the planet.

[MyDogShelby]

Most breeders will sell their dogs in levels - pet quality is one...which is probably what you are looking for. These dogs are maybe not as conformationally correct and are sold at a lower price on a spay/neuter contract. They are not any worse mind or working wise in alot of the cases...they just may not make it in a show ring and may not be good for breeding

There is also show quality which is a higher price and can be shown and bred...and then pick...which are usually the puppies that end up as champions and they are the most expensive. These last two are usually not on spay/neuter contracts.
Thanks for explaining everything in further detail Ceph :) I suppose if we decided to get a purebred Shepherd, I would have a lot of research to do on finding the right breeder and asking the right kinds of questions ;) I like to be prepared and not go into something "blind". I'm glad that I posted this thread :)

I think that if an American bred GSD were to stand the same way that say, a Labrador is supposed to, (get your GSD to stack as if he were a Lab) that slant would not be nearly as pronounced.

Is this true?
Jean, I think your post makes sense...since the GSD's aren't born with an angled back...bmom said the breeder draws the pups rear leg back, to teach them to stack in that manner.

[sheplovr]

Yes, the stack is to show the beauty better of the topline of the Shepherd. Also, the hips are done in Germany at one year, stamped on the Pink Rasse-Echtheitszertifikat inside an A triangle stamp by the SV or A Fast Normal is all the lower they go for work n show dogs and breeding. I have never seen anything lower and I have been importing since 1988. Along with the Pink Paper registration you get a Bescheinigung or transfer paper seperate fee also to copy these with two photos and foreign application to AKC for dual registration.
I do not compete with my dogs but parents are most all SchH3 with SG or show titles. I have pups in SAR; fly ball, search n rescue excelling, bomb detecting, etc. Just wanted to clarify some odds n ends. I love all dogs and breeds, just preferred to try and correct the Shepherd some going to Germany mostly with good contacts of Germans living in my home to trust fully. U can get taken also if you do not have a good agent cross the pond.
Thanks again for the post and letting us vent on this wonderful Breed of dog.:D Oh I get $800 for Pet Quality only. Not every litter even produces a Show or Breeding Quality it might take to 4 or 5 litters to keep one. Easier for me to sell and restrict papers for NO breeding. They are to notify me with vet notice pet is neutered or spayed. Average price is mine to one grand for Pets of good Blood. Show or breeding one can pay and I have to three grand, still reasonable.

[borzoimom]

The purpose of this stack is to show the topline, powerful rear, flat back and powerful rear and shoulders. YOu can see the stack natural if you trot the dog and come to an abrupt stop. As a 3point stack, it can be hard to teach, but really- its like the last stride before the complete stop. Or- the second stride in taking off.. Just like with a pointer- the normal point would be with nose down- yet taught to keep nose up with entended tail.
With shepherds- its easy for a judge to feel the muscle in the leg and thigh in this stack- .. A correctly made dog or even a unconditioned dog will stick out like a sore thumb. Without the proper hip and muscle structure, this stack leaves not question of " if it walks like a duck, .." etc. You cant hide it.

[kelsiebug]

My family use to have GSD's. It was like the 'family breed'.
Every dog we had, had a low back. And personally, those are my favorites. =)
I don't like the one's with a straight back, but, hey, we did have a GSD named Lasha I think, with a straight back a few years ago. =) I love them all.


(I am off topic, arent I?) lol.

[borzoimom]

Mydogshelby- if you want a good shepherd, I am more than willing to suggest several..

[eilenej1]

Oh I get $800 for Pet Quality only. Not every litter even produces a Show or Breeding Quality it might take to 4 or 5 litters to keep one. Easier for me to sell and restrict papers for NO breeding. They are to notify me with vet notice pet is neutered or spayed. Average price is mine to one grand for Pets of good Blood. Show or breeding one can pay and I have to three grand, still reasonable.

If I'm reading this correctly, you're saying your pet quality pups sell for about $800 and show / breeding quality sell for $3000??? Wow. That's a chunk of change!

[MyDogShelby]

My family use to have GSD's. It was like the 'family breed'.
Every dog we had, had a low back. And personally, those are my favorites. =)
I don't like the one's with a straight back, but, hey, we did have a GSD named Lasha I think, with a straight back a few years ago. =) I love them all.


(I am off topic, arent I?) lol.
:D Opinions are more than welcome! Your talking about GSD's and that is what this thread is about...I want to hear what everyone thinks ;)
Thank you for posting :)

Mydogshelby- if you want a good shepherd, I am more than willing to suggest several..
Thank you bmom, I'll let you know if we decide to get a GSD. Thank you :)

If I'm reading this correctly, you're saying your pet quality pups sell for about $800 and show / breeding quality sell for $3000??? Wow. That's a chunk of change!
Oh yes, if you want to get a good, healthy, dog from a reputable breeder who knows their stuff...you will have to pay a lot. Dedicated breeders spend a lot of time...trying to get the genetic quirks out of a particular breed. These are the breeders that breed to better the breed...not to make a quick buck.
I'm a little surprised by the price as well though...I thought $800 would be a little much for a "pet" quality GSD (no offense intended to you Pat)...but if the dog is healthy, than you "get what you pay for" ;)

I'm sure there are GSD Rescues...but I would assume that it would cost a couple of hundred dollars to adopt a puppy from them...and there's no guarantee on the health of their dogs...especially if they don't have a history on their background.

[skunkstripe]

I finally found a picture that shows what I was trying to put into words. Sheplovr, I hope you don't mind me using your handsome boy Gino as an example. :)

Here is a GSD standing normally
http://www.dogforum.org/gallery/data/500/220_geneee.jpg
See, no exaggerated sloping back, just a powerful looking dog. The same dog looks totally different in the show stack (kind of like the way body builders puff up their biceps and twist their hips to show off certain physical features).

[eb4i]

The sloping back that was all the rage in the 70's and 80's seems to have been done away with and the straight back has taken it's proper place.

The gsd had a hard time back then. Just like the Rottie had in the 90's. The breed becomes popular and then all SORTS of wierd thing begin to happen.

Sometimes I don't understand the dog community at all.

The genetic selection for 'proper breed standard' seems kind of arbitrary when the breed standard changes from decade to decade.... doesn't it?

[Fede]

This is an interesting topic! I’d like to tell you what I know, but you have to forgive my bad English (I hope at last I can explain myself) and my ignorance…This is what I know, I can’t assure you I am not mistaken. Moreover, what I say doesn’t mean to be polemical at all...it’s just information I’ve been collecting around while looking for my future dog…:D

First of all, I have to say that show lines of German shepherds have more or less slanted back here in Europe too. Maybe the problem is not so serious in Europe, but I can say for sure that here there are a lot of breeders who are producing dogs with more and more angular and low rears, here.

After the 60th years german shepherds started to change in a lot of ways: they have longer coat, saddle and black and tan are preferred to grey and black and to the dark colour we still find in working lines. They have darker eyes, more angular anterior and posterior legs. These are our dogs for show. But they still have to pass a temperament test and a resistance trial, to be used for breeding.

The American lines for show just tend to accentuate these morphological features. Until the Second World War, German and American GSD where exactly the same. But then American breeders started to block import, and they separated from German standard. They went on breeding with the first imported dogs, basing on aesthetic principles different from European ones. American show lines have longer body, finer bone structure and they are smaller, more angulated in their rear and with more marked down backs, more angulated and shorter legs. They also seem to have smaller heads, which are held up higher.

Some American breeders tried to produce and present again dogs similar to the original German standard, they tried to import german subjects, but those dogs had no success, because the American taste had become different. For example, the German Champion Bodo vom Lieberg (SchH3, FH), he was imported in 1967, but he never had success in USA. His brother, Bernd vom Lierberg (SchH3, FH) was the last succesful German dog. From 1970 on, American breeding practically escluded the possibility of success of German dogs (PS: For the ones who have read this far, I’m not stupid, it’s just my knowledge of English vocabulary is very limited…:rolleyes: )

In Europe, as I said, the morphological characteristics of show lines are not so marked, but still, I personally think they are producing less functional dogs. European Show lines have HD too! Maybe less, but they are going in the same direction.
There is a strong difference between show lines and working lines. Dogs that have been breed for work are similar to the original GSD of the 60th years, they have straight backs, less angular legs, more natural rear. They are healthier, I suppose, they have more functional body, better temperament…They also have shorter coat, darker, black and wolf-grey coats. East German, Austrian and Czechoslovakian lines are quite appreciated. These dogs are important to preserve mental and physical characteristics and aptitude of the original German shepherds.

From personal experience I can say that they are more difficult to handle, they have hard temperament, they need a strong-willed and coherent owner, but they also are more equilibrate, less nervous, with the right handler! These dogs are not meant to be family dogs. They need to work, to be put in action, they love to have a purpose!
On the contrary, show dogs (both in USA and Europe, I guess) often have bad temperament. They are shy or, on the contrary, aggressive without reason, sometimes they are biters…in the end, I'm afraid that all the working qualities are no more sufficiently present in show dogs.

So, in the end, I think this is not a problem of European or American breeders. I believe the problem is that, as it happens for a lot of breeds, the selection for show have sometimes been done in a careless or wrong way, or just they made some conscious choices which lead this way, without preservation of functionality and aptitudes. In the worse case, as for the german shepherd, this may compromise even health. That’s what I think.

[borzoimom]

I finally found a picture that shows what I was trying to put into words. Sheplovr, I hope you don't mind me using your handsome boy Gino as an example. :)

Here is a GSD standing normally
http://www.dogforum.org/gallery/data/500/220_geneee.jpg
See, no exaggerated sloping back, just a powerful looking dog. The same dog looks totally different in the show stack (kind of like the way body builders puff up their biceps and twist their hips to show off certain physical features).

Exactly .. and when put in the stack with the right back leg back- it will still show a level back, strong muscular rear...

[MyDogShelby]

This is an interesting topic! I’d like to tell you what I know, but you have to forgive my bad English (I hope at last I can explain myself) and my ignorance…This is what I know, I can’t assure you I am mistaken. Moreover, what I say doesn’t mean to be polemical at all...it’s just information I’ve been collecting around while looking for my future dog…:D

First of all, I have to say that show lines of German shepherds have more or less slanted back here in Europe too. Maybe the problem is not so serious in Europe, but I can say for sure that here there are a lot of breeders who are producing dogs with more and more angular and low rears, here.

...continued

So, in the end, I think this is not a problem of European or American breeders. I believe the problem is that, as it happens for a lot of breeds, the selection for show have sometimes been done in a careless or wrong way, or just they made some conscious choices which lead this way, without preservation of functionality and aptitudes. In the worse case, as for the german shepherd, this may compromise even health. That’s what I think.

Fede, you sure know a lot about the breed! Wow :) You have offered up some great information about the GSD breed. I take it this is a dog that you have great interest in ;)

I guess every dedicated GSD breeder (or any other breeder and breed) breed to better certain qualities inherit in the GSD.

Fede, I noticed in your post you say that the GSD's are larger in Europe? Did I catch that correctly? Because I have seen ads in Dog Fancy for "giant" German Shepherds...maybe they are commonly called King Shepherds??? Besides the larger size, in what other aspects do they differ?
And why is it that most of the GSD's in America are smaller?

[borzoimom]

In the US there are bigger shepherds. They are called Shilohs and huge- also can be with a longer coat as well.. http://www.shilohshepherds.org/

[BCNTC]

the slanted back is make the "flying trot" look better. it has NO purpose whatsoever and hinders the ability of a GSD to actually work. my dog wrked for the RCMP for 10 years, he said they had to import all their GSDs because the american ones were so useless(in the words of the RCMP) lol

[MyDogShelby]

In the US there are bigger shepherds. They are called Shilohs and huge- also can be with a longer coat as well.. http://www.shilohshepherds.org/
Yes I know about these, I saw an ad for them in a dog magazine and went to that same site :) They are very pretty dogs. That site has a list of verified Shiloh Shepherd breeders...it prevents byb breeders from selling "fake" Shiloh Shepherds.

So back to my original question...are there shepherds that are called King Shepherds? We know someone who has a "King Shepherd"...its a regular GSD (black/tan) but larger...
I have seen ads in Dog Fancy for large boned Rotties, and they are HUGE! :eek:

[Fede]

King shepherds? I read something about this breed a while ago…they ARE lager then a german shepherd, but they are a mixed breed: American German Shepherd and Alaskan Malamute for sure, plus another breed I don’t really remember, but it may have been the Great Pyrenees…

About European German Shepherd, they are slightly larger, with larger head and broader neck, but with slightly smaller, less deep chest, longer and less angular legs and backs…;)

[MyDogShelby]

King shepherds? I read something about this breed a while ago…they ARE lager then a german shepherd, but they are a mixed breed: American German Shepherd and Alaskan Malamute for sure, plus another breed I don’t really remember, but it may have been the Great Pyrenees…
Oh, so they are mixed with other breeds to get that size...I see...

About European German Shepherd, they are slightly larger, with larger head and broader neck, but with slightly smaller, less deep chest, longer and less angular legs and backs…;)
So the front (head) is more pronounced then their chest and back end...hmm, I think I would like an equally balanced looking GSD. :)
Thanks again Fede for the great info!

[Fede]

:eek: I almost forgot!!!

Your main concern about GSD was health, wasn’t it?
You know, here in Europe we have a very rare breed, the East German Shepherd Dog! I’m very fond of these dogs, but I never had the luck to see one in person! They are very rare now, because it is not recognized as a breed by the German Shepherd Breeding Association, so there are just a few breeders who still work with them…I think the last DDR Breed show was in the 80th years.
This breed has bigger bone structure, big heads, better health and a very good character, I (personally) think they are a sort of “elite” line of GSD!

The German Shepherd Dogs have always been very popular in Eastern Germany, GDS have always had large use in work, defence, army and for government.
After the separation of East and West Germany, the German Shepherd Dogs developed independently in the East. The point is, it was the Western German which started to breed differently, developing the dogs we know today, producing what we recognize as the show lines, those same lines which, I believe, are loosing their working skills and their health.

In the mean time, in the East Germany, they produced strictly controlled dogs! Every puppy, once adult, had to go through temperament and health tests, ant the results were recorded in it’s parents ”curriculum”, in terms of percentage of healthy (dysplasia free) and successful offspring, so those information added a bonus in the value of a breeding subject.
These are the healthier GSD blood lines, those dogs produce at least a percentage 85% healthy pups (which is a very good result, believe me :rolleyes: ). Unfortunately, this “breed” is today very rare, but here in Europe there are still some subjects coming from those bloodlines, and I think that they represent a valuable genetic patrimony for GSD, both because of their superior health conditions, and for their intact working abilities and aptitudes. :D :D :D

[MyDogShelby]

So the East German Shepherd Dog, which is rare, fits the description of a "King Shepherd"...does that mean that if a dog is advertised as a King Shepherd in the USA, that it most likely has European bloodlines from the EGSD? A breeder would had to of imported an EGSD, right?

[Fede]

Not really...East German Shepherd is much like a GDS which never changed from the original breed...These dogs are just "slightly" bigger than GSD, not because they got bigger themselves, but because nowday GDS is smaller!

King shepherds are VERY bigger than GSD (males are about 78 cm, I think, more or less, with great variations because it is a recent and unstable breed), and this breed cames from the American GSD lines ;) which are smaller...their size come from the other breeds they mixed together, not from the GSD blood, I believe...

[Fede]

Here there are some picture of DDR (East German Shepherd) on a website of an American breeder who imports them:

http://www.gillsgermanshepherds.com/

[Fede]

Here you can find some King Shepherds...
They are really different from DDR ;)


http://www.kingshepherd.com/


I hope it helped :)

[MyDogShelby]

Here there are some picture of DDR (East German Shepherd)...

I actually found these on a website of an American breeder who imports them:

http://www.gillsgermanshepherds.com/

Here you can find some King Shepherds...
They are really different from DDR ;)

http://www.kingshepherd.com/

I hope it helped :)
Wow! Those King Shepherds really are huge! Did you see the pic with the lady and her dog sitting on the bed...the comparison in size is unbelievable:eek:
I am amazed...full grown a King Shepherd can be well over 150 lbs...that is one big dog! I also noticed that the pics on the homepage of kingshepherd.com show them to be long haired shepherds.

Thanks Fede!

[Fede]

You're welcome ;)

Yeah, King Shepherds are pretty cute...Anyway, I don't know how much healthy we can expect King Shepherds to be. First because it's a new breed, and new breeds can have instable traits, both physical and in character …

To try to built a large breed using a breed which hasn’t a healthy bone structure in the first place (GSD), can be quite risky, I think…large breeds can suffer from bone problems more, so I think that a large size is not a good thing for GSD…

It’s also true that, on the contrary, Shiloh shepherds are larger but healthier than GSD…but that breeding program is not a recent experiment, and moreover they went about it very seriously, they still do…

I’m not informed about King Shepherds, so I cannot say this case is the same, if this breeding program was seriously controlled…So, I may be mistaken, but I’m quite dubious about this breed…

[Ceph]

Hey....I know its been a few days since I have been around but I thought I would mention some things regarding the DDR.

DDRs are not as uncommon as one would think...usually from what I have seen people lump DDR and Czech style dogs into the same kind of category...they are the major working dogs fo the breed...more so than any of the other lines I think. I know the Czech dogs are bred specifically for border work and as a result have drive out the wahoo, and alot of people will mix DDRs and Czech lines since they look very similiar.

Pretty much these two dogs are what the majority of the police forces and military uses....this past week all I saw were DDRs and Czechs...I even stopped one of the police men to talk to him about his dog which he said was Czech bred (I am considering becomig a cop after all this...their esponse was amazing). I asked him a few questions and he said he was one of the handler trainers for the state and all they used was czech and DDR line dogs...

they are a little easier to tell apart...they have a larger head..heavier bone structure usually...and alot fo the time they are black or sable colors which is something you dont uuuusually see in show lines or west german lines.

I personally love these dogs...I think I might end up breeding them along side my white dogs....I think they look better and have amazing temperments....I have been doing alot of research on them recently....:)

[Fede]

Yeah, amazing dogs indeed.
Czech working lines are very skilled dogs too! My uncle had two GSD, Whiskey, that came from Italian parents (but his remote origins were German), and Tequila! Tequila was my favourite play mate! He was half Czech working line and half West German work line!
I was 12 when he died, but I still remember him clearly. He had a much better temperament than Whiskey, he was calm, but still a very tough dog, equilibrate, self confident but never aggressive, and you could teach him everything you wanted. My uncle just had him guarding the house (and he was better than Whiskey anyway), but he never did put him to work seriously, he never did any work training…what a waste, now I say! If I had been older or wiser, that dog would have done what he was born to do!


Anyway... I still have to meet a DDS, so the differences I’m aware of between the two bloodlines are just the few things I read (and there’s not much to read, anyway…)…so I hope to meet a DDS personally, one day ;)

[Ceph]

The dog that I met was cool. I really enjoyed talking to the popo about him...he said he had just retired another dog and this one was new...and he would never use anything other than DDR or Czech lines.

I really love their sable coloring too (did I mention that already?) I think white and sable are about the two pretiest coats ever!

[Fede]

Yeah, beautiful coats (I don't like saddle very much...), and their temperament is amazing!
I’ve never seen one of those dogs practicing mondioring (mondioring is my recent obsession ;)), and I really don’t know why…they would be perfect!

[MyDogShelby]

Well ever since Ceph posted about her getting a White Shepherd puppy...I have fallen in love with Daisy (the pups mother) :wubsmiley:
I think she is soooo pretty! and I love the long hair on her.
If I were getting a Shepherd, I would definitely consider the White Shepherd...and some of the breeds posted in this thread.

[Fede]

There are a lot of varieties of GSD, the important thing is to be carefull abaut health...
Have you ever considered the altdeutsche schaeferhund (longhaired german shepherd)...this is one of my favourite, they often happen to be healthyer bloodlines, slightly bigger and with a calmer temperament.

Here there are some interesting links:

http://www.justshepherds.com/lhgsd.htm

http://www.longcoatgermanshepherds.com/

http://www.airchartertaupo.co.nz/bearzeke/

http://www.genesislongcoatgsdkennels.com/

[Monkey]

I just wanted to say thank you for a lot of great info.

I have only known a little about the shrimptails (as we call the slooping ones in sweden) and belive me, Europe has breeders who breed them that when the stand normally, they stand stacked. They cant have straight legs.

and that is approx what I know.. they only go good in show and not in work, they are usually skinnier and do not like to work as much.

So I have to say, all the info and the nice level you kept the topic on!!
GOOD JOB PEOPLE!!
In the swedish dogforum I used to sit it was never this grown up and good level. It was sandbox behaviour. It was so nice to read a good discussion about it with correct info for once. :)

[MyDogShelby]

There are a lot of varieties of GSD, the important thing is to be carefull abaut health...
Have you ever considered the altdeutsche schaeferhund (longhaired german shepherd)...this is one of my favourite, they often happen to be healthyer bloodlines, slightly bigger and with a calmer temperament.

Here there are some interesting links:

http://www.justshepherds.com/lhgsd.htm

http://www.longcoatgermanshepherds.com/

http://www.airchartertaupo.co.nz/bearzeke/

http://www.genesislongcoatgsdkennels.com/
Thanks Fede!!!

[Ceph]

You can also find long hairs in just about anywhere...many normal German Shepherds are carriers for it. I was on another forum and they were discussing this and apparently it is quite common. They'll usually put long hair pups on spay/neuter contracts since it is not within the standard...but I kind of got the impression that especially in alot of the work lines they show up fairly often.

[borzoimom]

Fede- I am very very impressed with your knowledge on the shepherd.. VERY GOOD!! :cheers:

[MyDogShelby]

Fede- I am very very impressed with your knowledge on the shepherd.. VERY GOOD!! :cheers:
Yes, she knows quite a bit! and Ceph too! Very impressive :applaud:

[sheplovr]

There is also the King and Shiloh Shepherds only in Rare Registrys, not AKC recognized. Long long coats and big boned dogs. Do not really looks Shepherd either.
Long coats I have gotten when crossing two carrying the gene, both parents must have the gene to get a long coat.
My German Friend, Gerti in Biblis Germany said one of her best Shutzhund dogs was a long coat female. Gertie sells her long coats when got for half the price as pets only.
Some are beautiful, but just not the tradition of the West German Sherherd. I once when starting imported the DDR female of Shutz1, 3 and half years old, she came coming into heat I was warned so bred her. Found out when she slipped by hubbys leg into the house, she attacked and killed my litter male neutered Boston Terrie, what a blood bath. We could in NO way get her to let go of his throat, very full bite. She then got loose o ne day attacked a female, saved her by grabbing her up at 6 months and running, she attacked the male that bred her. She was a total idiot.!! Never again and dropped this so called Agent I trusted to import from in beginning days of importing.

[Ceph]

I actually have a magazine that lists alot of breeders of the Shiloh. I like them...I think that they just ended up breeding larger german shepherds in similiar fashion to the Old German Shepherd Dog. They breed with temperment in mind also which is nice. From people I know who have met them they say the dogs are very sweet and calm. I think they are alot of dog though O.o

I am not 100% sure but I think the King shepherd has alot of dogs mixed in to it like malamutes to improve size. I'll look it up and see what I can find.

lol, we all know what I am partial too...I think I might like a shiloh...but at the same time I think I am going to have my hands full of White dogs and DDRs...man I love that drive...just need to find a good SchH club to keep all that energy occupied!

I also saw that UKC has protection sports...has anyone seen this? It looks really interesting...sort of a unique american form for bitwork and protection. If any of ya'll have info on this I would love it...and if not I am sure I will do some research and post what I find!

:)

[Fede]

Yes, she knows quite a bit! and Ceph too! Very impressive :applaud:





Not really :p …I know a just couple of things because I’m absolutely crazy about shepherds, but I guess I’m ignorant enough and quite inexperienced in pure breed dogs…If I’m lucky, one day my house will be full of GSD, White shepherds and Czechoslovakian wolfdogs :D …


Anyway, I can tell you a curiosity about longhaired GSD: it seems that their popularity in expo has always been second to the short haired variety, even when the long coat was accepted on the ring. Anyway, aesthetic preferences today are oriented towards semi-long coat (at least here in Europe, I really don’t know about American lines…). That’s the reason why they use dogs with thicker coats to equilibrate aesthetical traits. These dogs are etherozygous, they carry the dominant gene of the short coat, that partially interferes on the recessive long coat feature. The result is a medium coat, thicker, and longer on the neck, on the back of the legs and on the tail.
The price they pay to improve the aesthetics of the show lines is that one puppy every four displays the long coat, so it is disqualified from expos. They often sell those puppies at a lower price, and some of them have a very valuable pedigrees.

Anyway, also about long coat dogs, you can separate show lines from the others. The long coated GSD which came from show lines have a lower back and they are smaller…they are practically the same as the short coated show dogs, except for the coat length.
Then there are the so called Ancient German Shepherds (which are the Altdeutscher Schaferhunde) , which are slightly different…these dogs are physically similar to the work line GSD (it means they are bigger, with strighter backs etc...), but with a long coat, and you can find a larger variety of colours. I love these ones in particular :D


PS have a look at this:

http://www.bergerblancsuisse.be/index.html

they breed White Swiss Shepherds and Altdeutscher Schaferhunde (look at the bottom of their website)

[Ceph]

Fede - you are right...they do tend towards 'plush' coats in the American Showlines. Dogs that have this coat tend to do alot better. Its not necissarily a long coat...but rather a slightly longer and more open version of the short coat.

I think the reason the long hairs have not been as popular is because when herding things can get stuck in the fur of the dog, and it is a pain to take it out of the long coat. I think this argument is silly though...look at rough and border collies! Lots of fur that needs coming out! And they herd just fine...I guess that is just one of those arguments that you will hear.

~Cate

[Fede]

MyDogShelby I apologisze if I am saying something you already know....
the stance of the show dogs ("stack") is different for GSDs than for most breeds. (Correct me if I am wrong you guys, I am trying to translate between show and non-show people). Borzoimom I think you posted it, but if you are not in the show scene it is difficult to really know what is involved in the stack otherwise.

I think that if an American bred GSD were to stand the same way that say, a Labrador is supposed to, (get your GSD to stack as if he were a Lab) that slant would not be nearly as pronounced.

Is this true?








I feel like this topic still need to be discussed…I don’t like leaving things unclear, and I’d still like to know your opinion about a couple of things…(I also think I'll have to post this in more than one reply, 'cause it's too long :p )

You know, I personally don’t think it’s just a matter or stack…

To explain what I mean…White Swiss Shepherd and DDR use the same stack (maybe less pronounced), but their back is straight, and their rear is not so low! Look at these dogs, they are all shown more or less in the same position, but there’s a big difference between them:



European Show Line in stack:
http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/13_Breed_Type/high_line.JPG (http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/13_Breed_Type/high_line.JPG)
http://www.vonwaldhaus.com/images/fox-stack.jpg (http://www.vonwaldhaus.com/images/fox-stack.jpg)
http://www.informacani.it/foto_halls_of_fame/pastore_tedesco_fossombrone.jpg (http://www.informacani.it/foto_halls_of_fame/pastore_tedesco_fossombrone.jpg)
http://www.dshausgeeste.de/homepagebilder/homepage/maxdellalogia.jpg (http://www.dshausgeeste.de/homepagebilder/homepage/maxdellalogia.jpg)
http://www.thedruidpub.com/elsinor/Kopie%20von%2023.11.05.jpg (http://www.thedruidpub.com/elsinor/Kopie%20von%2023.11.05.jpg)

American Show Line in stack:
http://www.totana-at-piperhill.com/images/kodachrome.jpg (http://www.totana-at-piperhill.com/images/kodachrome.jpg)
http://www.hickoryhillgsd.com/worththetrip.jpg (http://www.hickoryhillgsd.com/worththetrip.jpg)
http://www.dogsgermanshepherd.com/Gold%20Med%20Show%20Win.jpg (http://www.dogsgermanshepherd.com/Gold%20Med%20Show%20Win.jpg)
http://www.dogsgermanshepherd.com/German_Shepherd.JPG (http://www.dogsgermanshepherd.com/German_Shepherd.JPG)
http://www.shadowvalleyshepherds.com/images/prog/sierra.jpg (http://www.shadowvalleyshepherds.com/images/prog/sierra.jpg)
http://www.whispawillowkennels.com/images/star-12mths.jpg (http://www.whispawillowkennels.com/images/star-12mths.jpg)
http://www.geocities.com/windvanekennels/photos/Scoop-RWD.jpg (http://www.geocities.com/windvanekennels/photos/Scoop-RWD.jpg)
http://www.hickoryhillgsd.com/bullanddad.jpg (http://www.hickoryhillgsd.com/bullanddad.jpg)


American Line White Swiss Shepherd in stack (I think they are perfect!):
http://www.whiteshepherdclub.ca/Von%20Tasz'%20Jack%20of%20All%20Trades%20XP.jpg (http://www.whiteshepherdclub.ca/Von%20Tasz'%20Jack%20of%20All%20Trades%20XP.jpg)
http://www.whiteshepherdclub.ca/34-1Royal%20Von%20Tasz%20Classic.jpg (http://www.whiteshepherdclub.ca/34-1Royal%20Von%20Tasz%20Classic.jpg)
http://www.hoflin.com/images/image1839.gif (http://www.hoflin.com/images/image1839.gif)

European Line White Swiss Shepherd in stack (I didn’t find significant ones of this…that stack is not used much to show here in Europe):
http://www.hot.ee/failidveebis/Almigthypics/CondoridDoloresed/moses_lascar_von_tasz.gif (http://www.hot.ee/failidveebis/Almigthypics/CondoridDoloresed/moses_lascar_von_tasz.gif)
http://www.berger-blanc-suisse.be/03-bozo.jpg (http://www.berger-blanc-suisse.be/03-bozo.jpg)
http://www.cz-pes.cz/atlas/bily_ovcak/ovcak1.jpg (http://www.cz-pes.cz/atlas/bily_ovcak/ovcak1.jpg)
http://www.puppy.com.my/breed/images/wshepherd.jpg (http://www.puppy.com.my/breed/images/wshepherd.jpg)


West German Shepherd Working Line in stack:
http://www.hirschwiese.com/images/Chloe2a.jpg (http://www.hirschwiese.com/images/Chloe2a.jpg)
http://www.vomhausmiller.com/images/Benno.jpg (http://www.vomhausmiller.com/images/Benno.jpg)
http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/13_Breed_Type/german_working.JPG (http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/13_Breed_Type/german_working.JPG)

East German Shepherd Working Line (DDR) in stack:
http://www.vomdomburgerland.nl/pics3/boban2.jpg (http://www.vomdomburgerland.nl/pics3/boban2.jpg)
http://glisnik.com/IMAGES/STANICE/ODCHOV/congo_v.jpg (http://glisnik.com/IMAGES/STANICE/ODCHOV/congo_v.jpg)
http://www.vombanachk9.homestead.com/Grand_Stack.jpg (http://www.vombanachk9.homestead.com/Grand_Stack.jpg)
http://alpinekk99.com/images/gep.jpeg (http://alpinekk99.com/images/gep.jpeg)





See what I mean? There’s a big difference in their back (even if I must admit White Shepherd stack is not so pronounced as the German shepherd one, but you can tell the different structure, anyway…)

[Fede]

Now look at these dogs standing on four legs straight, not in the three point stack, but with both their posterior legs in the same position under their body. I had to admit it was extremely difficult to find one who looked normal!

This is how a German shepherd should stand to be health and well built :
http://www.4germanshep.com/skeleton_of_GSD.gif (http://www.4germanshep.com/skeleton_of_GSD.gif)

And these are the real dogs:



European Show Line standing:
http://fixedreference.org/2006-Wikipedia-CD-Selection/images/72/7204.jpg (http://fixedreference.org/2006-Wikipedia-CD-Selection/images/72/7204.jpg)
http://www.vonwaldberggermanshepherds.com/photos/animals/1109.jpg (http://www.vonwaldberggermanshepherds.com/photos/animals/1109.jpg)
http://media.vivastreet.com/v1/2/d/c/photo_2133485 (http://media.vivastreet.com/v1/2/d/c/photo_2133485)
http://photos.scc.asso.fr/albums/userpics/thumb_1092172361.jpg (http://photos.scc.asso.fr/albums/userpics/thumb_1092172361.jpg)


American Show Line standing:
http://www.totana-at-piperhill.com/images/eden.jpg (http://www.totana-at-piperhill.com/images/eden.jpg)
http://www.briar-hills.com/images/P5160034.JPG (http://www.briar-hills.com/images/P5160034.JPG)
http://www.totana-at-piperhill.com/images/dakota.jpg (http://www.totana-at-piperhill.com/images/dakota.jpg)
http://www.sunnydae.com/hootch.jpg (http://www.sunnydae.com/hootch.jpg)


They are all more or less faulted, if you ask me.
They show anomaly in the way they put their knee, the angle and inclination of the pastern and metatarsals! I would say it depends from the photos, maybe they are not realistic, but I tell you I didn’t find ANY photo were they looked normal! And the only GSD I personally saw standing right were family dogs with not so “pure” blood and no show dog lineage!


On the contrary, these are pretty good, I think:

White Swiss Shepherd standing (Both American and European ones):
http://home.hccnet.nl/j.broekman/kane%20stand%20IV2.jpg (http://home.hccnet.nl/j.broekman/kane%20stand%20IV2.jpg)
http://www.noflikstee.com/PICT0232.JPG (http://www.noflikstee.com/PICT0232.JPG)
http://www.kc-assen.nl/Clubshow2004foto/herder_groot.jpg (http://www.kc-assen.nl/Clubshow2004foto/herder_groot.jpg)
http://members.chello.nl/ldegenaar/Angel%202.jpg (http://members.chello.nl/ldegenaar/Angel%202.jpg)
http://www.infor.nl/honden/images/berger.jpg (http://www.infor.nl/honden/images/berger.jpg)


Work Line German Shepherd standing:
http://www.pinebushkennels.com/images/mikyjahe.jpg (http://www.pinebushkennels.com/images/mikyjahe.jpg)
http://www.vomdomburgerland.nl/pics_nieuw/wk50_d.jpg (http://www.vomdomburgerland.nl/pics_nieuw/wk50_d.jpg)
http://www.evermoreshepherds.com/web-elvis%205-30-04%20by%20side%20of%20house.jpg (http://www.evermoreshepherds.com/web-elvis%205-30-04%20by%20side%20of%20house.jpg)
http://www.evermoreshepherds.com/web-mya%203-6-06%20index.jpg (http://www.evermoreshepherds.com/web-mya%203-6-06%20index.jpg)
http://www.adogshome.com/dogimages/garriimages/garri_standing.jpg (http://www.adogshome.com/dogimages/garriimages/garri_standing.jpg)





This is what I think exactly about the whole matter, I’d like to know what you think too:

The curved back you see in European GSD is supposed to add strength to their rear and posterior movement. That is, if the dog had been breed correctly, and the curved back comes with an healthy hip and well built posterior legs and joints. But that does not happen.

Some show dogs, and you can see that clearly in American show lines if you look at their photos in stack, may have a straighter back (American GDS have, in fact, straighter backs), but very low rears and extremely angulated legs, and the two things together can make a very problematic structure: you can see that their elbow joint (between humorous and forearm) is very closed, as for example in the dachshunds; they present anomaly also in the angles between femur and tibia (the knee) and between tibia and tarsal (the ankle). Their knee is at the same level, sometimes even lower than the ankle!!! That’s not right, and that’s not due to the stack at all! The correct three point stack is the one you can see in white shepherds, it shouldn’t deform their posterior legs that absurd way!

[Fede]

The result is that GSD in general, as they breed them today, deal with a great of suffering when they move. Around six years, when they are mature enough to work seriously, after about four years of training and necessary experience, the are no more able to “move” properly and without suffering, not just because of dysplasia, but because a lot of health problems which are more or less due to the same breeding mistakes...

And some work lines have these problems too! Excluding DDR, which are strictly controlled, and seems to be healthier, at least when we talk about dysplasia, German Shepherd work lines show health problems too. Someone says that the biggest mistake and worse error we have made breeding working dogs in the last 30 years is due to the fact that we always look for dogs with much drive and energetic behaviour without looking for the true reasons behind this. We obviously breed work dogs basing on strong characters, but how and why do they show this temperament?

This is what some people say (and I agree too):

As I said, we have bred dogs with curved backs, and we can find these curved backs in show lines (because they like it, because it’s supposed to guarantee more strength in the rear, or better movement, or more agility, whatever they say, that’s not the point…), and more or less in working lines too. The point is, to make a curved back, we have changed the bones structure. The result is that while the back was taking that profile, the bones were growing somewhere else without us noticing until too late: the channel where the spinal marrow get through to was becoming more and more narrow and tight.
When the bone grows that way, it interfere with the nerves (this health problem is called “Spondilosi”, at least in Italian…I’m sorry I don’t know the English name for it…and it’s linked to Cauda Equina too.). It means that the lumbar vertebrae are not “clean”, there is too little room for the nerves. Now, when the dog is young, the bone has a slick surface, but when the dog starts to age, the bone becomes coarse like a grater. So, every time the nerve pass through it, it’s like an electric shock!

Now, unless the problem is in its terminal phase, that is unless the nerve finally cease its functioning, the dog reacts to this continuous stimulus by getting excited and in a state of hyperactivity. Sometimes, we mistake this for active temperament and energetic character, which is good for a working dogs, when it is just the way they react to pain! So they use them for breeding!
In the end, we are operating a selection on a breed basing on health problems…these dogs are handing out their faults.

Yes, because we are strict about x-rays and dysplasia control, but we never check out spondilosi and cauda equina! Even worse, we unknowingly chose breeding subjects basing on how much they suffer: the more they suffer, the more aggressive, active and vigorous on work they are!

[Ceph]

I also thought I would show ya'll something I found on another forum...

This made me cringe! This is an example of some of the dogs that are being bred in Germany....the second two pics are of a dog who is a full sib to a VA rated dog...I didnt catch his rating.

The first dog is not too bad...but the last picture made me shudder..

The good news is I think that you are seeing less roach in the shows as you go along. They are trying to get away from it which I personally think is a great thing.

Thanks for all the info Fede :applaud:

[Fede]

I agree, the first one at least has a decent moving, it's not the top, but it still can do...the second is also good enough. I mean, his back is not ideal, but at least it seems to have good legs.
The other ones, personally, I think they shouldn't be allowed to breed at all...:wtf:

Just an info: is it true that x-rays for GSD are not mandatory in USA and Canada? I found this a bit strange, can you confirm this?:confused:


Anyway, I hope our generation is going to solve GSD problems, even if it means to start breeding from the beginning again...:D

[Ceph]

They arent mandatory in the US....its kind of depressing actually.

The good breeders WILL do hip xrays, but the problem is the back yard breeders who are only in it to make money and. Responisble breeders usually will only breed OFA Good or Excellent with clear elbows, and additionally they will do other tests.

however its not a requirement...some breed clubs require it...but not the UKC or AKC etc... My breed club actually has a breeders code of ethics that we are required to abide by which is excellent I think.

~Cate

[Fede]

Oh, understood.
Thanks for the explanation! ;) I guess we are lucky, anyway, that responsible breeders are way more numerous…there are very few people who use breeding to make money…there are a lot of easier and more productive ways to gain money, I believe…

[Ceph]

I think that is one of the really nice things about Europe...it is harder to be a backyard breeder there. However...keep in mind the really good breeders here are really good and are on par with the really good breeders overseas.

It just takes some time to do some research :) Which you probably need to do in Europe also to find what you are looking for :)

I am a big fan of breeder research :p